Balance Issues!

[Klassiker]

The video and the photo you posted above; these are both with the escape wheel removed, is that right? Did you change anything else since this morning?

 Your description of how the train comes gently to rest sounds good. Post a video to be sure.

In the latest video above, it looks like the balance is swinging freely, and coming to rest gradually with the impulse jewel on the line through the pivot centres, exactly as it should do. So we can rule out the interference between impulse jewel and horns etc. which I was speculating about earlier. You don't need to adjust the stud carrier. The watch is in beat.

I read through your post from this morning over again. I think I misunderstood it. You describe the fork resting against one the banking pins, to one side or the other, but not in the middle. If you had all the train wheels installed and power in the mainspring, then this is exactly what is supposed to happen. This how the escapement works!

Would you mind defining your problem again? Give us as much information as possible about the conditions and how the problem manifests itself. Your videos are helping a lot. Don't be afraid to start recording earlier and stop later.

Edited October 28, 2024 by Klassiker

[nevenbekriev]

Hi SiZi,

It looks from what You show the movement should work, but it doesn't. So the reason must be found...

You videos are informative, but it would be better if You don't blow so strongly air on the balance as to make it spin really fast. No, it is not needed. Now I have to wait looking at the videos for the balance to calm down almost all the time, and then what I need to see happens very fast on the end of video or is missed at all.

Can You record a video where the movement is assembled and tries to work? I don't need initial amplitude more than 180 and what I really need is to see how fast and how exactly the balance will come to a stop and in what exact position it will stop, plus position of the pallet fork

[watchweasol]

Hi the attached files will help you regarding  parts and their horological names.

dictionary_ebauches_sa.pdf TZIllustratedGlossary.pdf

[Neverenoughwatches]

4 hours ago, caseback said:

As already mentioned, if it's about centered it will be ok and not be the cause of the watch stopping.

You mentioned that the escapewheel comes to a gentle stop. That is nice, but no guarantee. You also seem to have some doubts about the pallet fork's "snap". 

Sometimes an escapewheel spins great when the train is not under "load", but with some wind and the pallet fork preventing the wheels from spinning, other factors come into play. There was a post on this forum very recently where the train of a desk clock of some type spun great when free, but not under load. In the end it turned out one of the wheels had a broken pivot.. Just saying, don't assume the pallet fork or balance are now the only 2 options left. 

the extra torque in the train once the mainspring is energised will drive a bend pivot into the side walls of a bearing where it no longer has any freeplay to roll around , just as a wheel with a broken pivot can no longer hold its position sat on it's bearing.

On 10/27/2024 at 1:54 PM, caseback said:

This might be instructive as well:

 

what do we do when the escapewheel,  fork and the balance pivots don't all follow a straight line with each other ? And the banking pins are not set either side of the lever body ? 

Then how do we visualise beat error ?

[nevenbekriev]

6 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

what do we do when the escapewheel,  fork and the balance pivots don't all follow a straight line with each other ? And the banking pins are not set either side of the lever body ? 

Then how do we visualise beat error ?

This i simple. The escape wheel bearings position is not important. The straight line needed where the impulse pin must be is balance bearings - pallet fork bearings.

[SiZi]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions, I will try to provide you with as much information as possible to help your diagnosis of the problem:

1. Here are pics of all the wheels and the pallet so you can see their condition - I don’t think they have any damage:

 

2. Here’s a video of a few tests I have done to show the running of the train, free run of the balance, the balance with only the pallet, and the pallet snap…

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j8MHwNVwDlM

3. Finally, here is a video of the watch reassembled - I have lubricated  with D5, 9010 and 9415 as per Mark’s course. As you can see it runs a little and then slows down and then picks up just before dying but then eventually dies out…

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j0I1vegRgEQ

I hope the above information helps. I look forward to your suggestions. 
 

Thank you for sharing your expertise so generously! 

[praezis]

Lol

No more tests and videos needed: escape wheel is missing one pivot!

[AndyGSi]

For people with bad eyesight.

[SiZi]

18 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

For people with bad eyesight.

lol wow! Luckily I have a spare…. See below. Will try this and report back 

 

[SiZi]

Here’s a video of it all put back together. It’s been running like this for the past 15min, fully wound up. I’ll check in every few hours. But hopefully this is it…

I am receiving a weishi 1000 in a few weeks and I’ll do a check on it at that time. But for now, I’m just glad it’s working. Being my first repair, this watch taught me many things:

1. How to tighten a canon pinion, and then loosen an overly tightened one!

2. How to find spare parts for a discontinued movement 

3. how to adjust the position of the stud on the balance so it lines up with the pallet and escape wheel pivots

4. How important it is to use correct vocabulary and I now have a great glossary  bookmarked for reference

5. how to test different works while reassembling step by step

6. it helped me build up significant fine motor skills because the movement is minuscule and I had to take it apart and put it back atleast 15 times!

Thank you to everyone from the community here, for your help across multiple boards on this forum. This repair has given me so much learning and confidence that I repaired another watch - Omega Deville from the ‘70s - while I was working on this one! I am well on my way to adding watch servicing and repair to my list of hobbies/interests now. thank you!

I just might be back with more questions if the watch stops or the Timegrapher tells me I’m waaaay off

[Neverenoughwatches]

You forgot .........

6. To look more closely at escapewheels for missing pivots......thanks to "Eagle Eyes"  Frank. 

 

 

Edited October 30, 2024 by Neverenoughwatches

[SiZi]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

You forgot .........

6. To look more closely at escapewheels for missing pivots......thanks to "Eagle Eyes"  Frank. 

 

 

Haha absolutely  

[Klassiker]

It's a pleasure to help someone who listens, learns and gives positive feedback.

[praezis]

3 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

thanks to "Eagle Eyes"  Frank.

too much honor, Nev!

On those good photos even a watchmaking mole would have seen the issue

Frank

[Neverenoughwatches]

58 minutes ago, praezis said:

too much honor, Nev!

On those good photos even a watchmaking mole would have seen the issue

Frank

Lol you were the first one to it Frank.....but yes pretty obvious ...

[SiZi]

I’m back, and this time with a weishi 1000. I’ve managed to get the beat error below 1, and the rate between +12 to 15sec  per day (I’m sure I can get this lower), but my main concern is the low amplitude at 150. I’ve tested two positions - dial up, and crown facing the floor. I figured I would start with these two positions since they are probably what the watch will spend most of its time in? Determine the lift angle to be around 50. 
I know there are so many possibilities for why the amplitude is low, but I’ve done a bunch of checks earlier. I am thinking I just might need to disassemble and re clean and reassemble again, and hope for the best? Any more checks I should do? Thanks so much! 

[SwissSeiko]

sometimes I have found that after I have cleaned and oiled the movement and start to have to assemble and reassemble to diagnose an issue, its best to start the cleaning over and see if the issue persists.

[Neverenoughwatches]

17 minutes ago, SiZi said:

I’m back, and this time with a weishi 1000. I’ve managed to get the beat error below 1, and the rate between +12 to 15sec  per day (I’m sure I can get this lower), but my main concern is the low amplitude at 150. I’ve tested two positions - dial up, and crown facing the floor. I figured I would start with these two positions since they are probably what the watch will spend most of its time in? Determine the lift angle to be around 50. 
I know there are so many possibilities for why the amplitude is low, but I’ve done a bunch of checks earlier. I am thinking I just might need to disassemble and re clean and reassemble again, and hope for the best? Any more checks I should do? Thanks so much! 

What checks have you done Sizi ? Hope shouldn't come into the equation matey, to get good at watchrepair you should always aim for the knowing....not....the hoping.  If you know you know...... if you only hope for a better outcome you'll never know what the problem was. 

 

Tell us about the checks you've made then lets go from there

A disassemble and a re-clean may correct an unnoticed issue that  reoccurs. And absolutely.......a less than spotless movement is an issue.

So for me....I would want to pin point the problem....working through function groups.

Edited November 15, 2024 by Neverenoughwatches

[AndyGSi]

Ranfft shows the Zodia 10 as 52 Deg Lift Angle and as this was a joint venture with the Felsa, Ebel etc. I'd expect it to be the same.

I work on an amplitude increase/decrease of about 10 per Deg so you're probably nearer to 170 but still low.

[SiZi]

12 hours ago, AndyGSi said:

Ranfft shows the Zodia 10 as 52 Deg Lift Angle and as this was a joint venture with the Felsa, Ebel etc. I'd expect it to be the same.

I work on an amplitude increase/decrease of about 10 per Deg so you're probably nearer to 170 but still low.

Thank you for this! I couldn’t find my movement’s LA on ranftt so I tried to determine manually with a sharpie etc. But 52 sounds about right. 

14 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

What checks have you done Sizi ? Hope shouldn't come into the equation matey, to get good at watchrepair you should always aim for the knowing....not....the hoping.  If you know you know...... if you only hope for a better outcome you'll never know what the problem was. 

 

Tell us about the checks you've made then lets go from there

A disassemble and a re-clean may correct an unnoticed issue that  reoccurs. And absolutely.......a less than spotless movement is an issue.

So for me....I would want to pin point the problem....working through function groups.

I’m going to disassemble, re clean, check carefully while cleaning, test function groups while reassembling, and be more precise with lubrication to his time around. I’ll report back after. 

[SiZi]

After recleaning, relocating, and reassembly, I’m back to 150 amplitude in dial up position. I am going to disassemble again and do some tests to identify the problem:

1. balance free run (only balance and nothing else)

2. Only the train go wheels and gentle push of mainspring barrel to see how wheels turn 

I’ll also check for side and end shake 

3. pallet in pace to see how it moves with gentle pushes and with a little wind 

4. I will reinspect all pivot holes and clean them, and also reinspect all wheel and balance pivots. 
5. I will inspect the balance and hairspring again. 

What are some other tests you suggest? 
 

P.S. the replacement mainspring that I put in was 0.05mm thinner than original spec. The only other option is one that is 0.05 thicker than spec. Do you think this can make significant difference in amplitude?

thank you in advance

[Neverenoughwatches]

13 minutes ago, SiZi said:

After recleaning, relocating, and reassembly, I’m back to 150 amplitude in dial up position. I am going to disassemble again and do some tests to identify the problem:

1. balance free run (only balance and nothing else)

2. Only the train go wheels and gentle push of mainspring barrel to see how wheels turn 

I’ll also check for side and end shake 

3. pallet in pace to see how it moves with gentle pushes and with a little wind 

4. I will reinspect all pivot holes and clean them, and also reinspect all wheel and balance pivots. 
5. I will inspect the balance and hairspring again. 

What are some other tests you suggest? 
 

P.S. the replacement mainspring that I put in was 0.05mm thinner than original spec. The only other option is one that is 0.05 thicker than spec. Do you think this can make significant difference in amplitude?

thank you in advance

When you start putting things back together, begin with a check of the barrel assembly before putting the gear train in. This is where amplitude originates, pop the lid off and see that the mainspring is properly seated and has some light lubrication. If the mainspring is tied up inside the barrel from incorrect sizing then the balance is never going to receive enough energy to run with a decent amplitude. When you are happy with the mainspring's ability to provide enough power then inspect the end and side shakes of the barrel arbor in the barrel itself and between the plate and barrel bridge. Please yourself that the barrel can operate with free motion within the movement without rubbing anywhere. When you're happy with all this then progress to the installation of the train, checking, pivots, pivot bearings, wheel teeth for damage, end and sideshakes, wheel and pinion meshing as you go, and finishing with the free motion check of the entire train up to pallet fork....looking for exhibits of friction. If all is good...a good sign will be the escapewheel  giving a few seconds of backspin.....install the crown and winding works to give you a better feel of the energy you are winding in...no pushing the barrel .

[SiZi]

10 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

When you start putting things back together, begin with a check of the barrel assembly before putting the gear train in. This is where amplitude originates, pop the lid off and see that the mainspring is properly seated and has some light lubrication. If the mainspring is tied up inside the barrel from incorrect sizing then the balance is never going to receive enough energy to run with a decent amplitude. When you are happy with the mainspring's ability to provide enough power then inspect the end and side shakes of the barrel arbor in the barrel itself and between the plate and barrel bridge. Please yourself that the barrel can operate with free motion within the movement without rubbing anywhere. When you're happy with all this then progress to the installation of the train, checking, pivots, pivot bearings, wheel teeth for damage, end and sideshakes, wheel and pinion meshing as you go, and finishing with the free motion check of the entire train up to pallet fork....looking for exhibits of friction. If all is good...a good sign will be the escapewheel  giving a few seconds of backspin.....install the crown and winding works to give you a better feel of the energy you are winding in...no pushing the barrel .

Will do, thank you! Quick question… about the backspin of the escape wheel. If it just stops dead in its tracks at the end, and does not present backspin, what does this indicate? 

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, SiZi said:

Will do, thank you! Quick question… about the backspin of the escape wheel. If it just stops dead in its tracks at the end, and does not present backspin, what does this indicate? 

You are welcome young man ( Just reminded myself of Harry Enfield's Dirty old Ladies " Young man " sketches LOL. So some reversing of the escapewheel is a good indication that the train is acceptably friction free, it doesn't necessarily mean that there are really bad things going on if you don't see it. But if its coming to an abrupt halt then you obviously need to be searching for some friction lurking somewhere, but it can depend on how well the train gear is meshing what you might see. Its just really nice to see it reverse, no hard and fast rules apply.  Think we need some Harry Enfield now.....and for the faint hearted, look away and put on some ear muffs 

https://youtu.be/C2hgAsi8Ae4?si=4bg9oKxZn8HhqQ3B

 

Edited November 30, 2024 by Neverenoughwatches