Balance Issues!

[SiZi]

Still working on this super tiny 1960s ladies watch Ebel cal. 59 movement! Not the best starter movement for a first time restorer  But anyway, so far I’ve learned how to make a cannon pinion tighter and then looser / just right, and how to identify and replace damaged parts. This is all thanks to the collective sharing of the generous community here. So, I’m back for more, this should be the last problem before everything works! 
 

Problem - The balance will move for a bit and then stop.
 

The mainspring and train of wheels  work - I’ve checked. the mainspring and its parts seem to be in ok condition and I demagnetised just in case. 
 

can you suggest what else I should look for as a checklist in order to identify the problem? Thanks!

Here is a video of the pallet and how it moves, and also how the escapement behaves with strong puffs from the hand blower to the balance https://youtu.be/WKxXQrJTb8A
 

Edited October 27, 2024 by SiZi

[caseback]

How does the balance behave when jou put it in (without the pallet fork present) and you do a free occilation test?

In the video I can't clearly see if the pallet fork moves with a nice "snap". How does the escape wheel turn (again without pallet fork) if you give the barrel a little push? Gentle stop and perhaps a small backwards motion as well, or a sudden stop?

Edited October 27, 2024 by caseback
Edit

[RichardHarris123]

Try casebacks advice, I  moved the post to a more relevant section. 

[SiZi]

1 hour ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Try casebacks advice, I  moved the post to a more relevant section. 

Thank you! 

1 hour ago, caseback said:

How does the balance behave when jou put it in (without the pallet fork present) and you do a free occilation test?

In the video I can't clearly see if the pallet fork moves with a nice "snap". How does the escape wheel turn (again without pallet fork) if you give the barrel a little push? Gentle stop and perhaps a small backwards motion as well, or a sudden stop?

Thanks for your questions. Let me try a get you videos of these questions. 

1 hour ago, caseback said:

How does the balance behave when jou put it in (without the pallet fork present) and you do a free occilation test?

In the video I can't clearly see if the pallet fork moves with a nice "snap". How does the escape wheel turn (again without pallet fork) if you give the barrel a little push? Gentle stop and perhaps a small backwards motion as well, or a sudden stop?

Heres a video that I hope answers your questions - 

 

 

Edited October 27, 2024 by SiZi

[praezis]

Looks like your balance position is totally off, stud carrier out of normal position.

Test - balance in rest position, not moving - if the impulse jewel is exactly in line with pallet and escape wheel centers.

Frank

[SiZi]

34 minutes ago, praezis said:

Looks like your balance position is totally off, stud carrier out of normal position.

Test - balance in rest position, not moving - if the impulse jewel is exactly in line with pallet and escape wheel centers.

Frank

Thank for your feedback. Here is a picture of the balance upside down in rest position. It seems like the jewel is in the right place, no? 

 

And i can’t take a pic to show but when the balance is assembled, if I look from underneath then see the diagram below for position of the jewel vs the guard pins when the balance is resting 

Edited October 27, 2024 by SiZi

[caseback]

18 minutes ago, SiZi said:

Thank for your feedback. Here is a picture of the balance upside down in rest position. It seems like the jewel is in the right place, no? 

 

And i can’t take a pic to show but when the balance is assembled, if I look from underneath then see the diagram below for position of the jewel vs the guard pins when the balance is resting 

You cannot do a free occillation test when the balance cock isn't properly secured with it's screw. Then, like Praezis already pointed out, see if the impulse jewel is centered between the pins when in rest. If not, that needs adjustment. If it is indeed in the position you show in your drawing, its way (!) off.

[SiZi]

2 hours ago, caseback said:

You cannot do a free occillation test when the balance cock isn't properly secured with it's screw. Then, like Praezis already pointed out, see if the impulse jewel is centered between the pins when in rest. If not, that needs adjustment. If it is indeed in the position you show in your drawing, its way (!) off.

Here is a video showing the balance free run test screwed in - 

 

And I checked carefully, here is an updated diagram of the jewel’s position on the balance vs the guard pins and escape wheel.

Edited October 27, 2024 by SiZi

[GPrideaux]

As @caseback pointed out, the stud carrier is way out. The impulse jewel should come to rest on the line that joins the pivots of the escape wheel, the pallet fork and the balance wheel, and that line should run right through the middle of the two guard pins. Something like this:

From your diagram yours looks to be more like this:

To fix this you should gently turn the stud carrier anticlockwise towards the balance cock with the balance installed, until the jewel comes to rest on the correct line.

[SiZi]

21 minutes ago, GPrideaux said:

As @caseback pointed out, the stud carrier is way out. The impulse jewel should come to rest on the line that joins the pivots of the escape wheel, the pallet fork and the balance wheel, and that line should run right through the middle of the two guard pins. Something like this:

From your diagram yours looks to be more like this:

To fix this you should gently turn the stud carrier anticlockwise towards the balance cock with the balance installed, until the jewel comes to rest on the correct line.

Understood. Thank you for the instructive diagrams. I found this video for how to do it. However my question is - do I really need to disassemble everything like he did at the start or can I just use a screw driver to adjust it like he did at the end? 

 

Edited October 27, 2024 by SiZi

[GPrideaux]

No, you don't need to do any of that. It's much simpler on your watch because it has a moveable stud carrier. The way Mark is demonstrating in the video is how to adjust it if the stud is fixed directly to the balance cock. You might have to do that if the jewel position was WAY out, but I don't think that's the case here. The whole point of a moveable stud carrier is to make it possible to make this adjustment without removing the balance and fiddling with the collet. All you need to do is move the stud carrier, as I indicated in the marked-up still I took from your video.

[SiZi]

20 minutes ago, GPrideaux said:

No, you don't need to do any of that. It's much simpler on your watch because it has a moveable stud carrier. The way Mark is demonstrating in the video is how to adjust it if the stud is fixed directly to the balance cock. You might have to do that if the jewel position was WAY out, but I don't think that's the case here. The whole point of a moveable stud carrier is to make it possible to make this adjustment without removing the balance and fiddling with the collet. All you need to do is move the stud carrier, as I indicated in the marked-up still I took from your video.

I’m glad I asked first! I can’t see your image though

[caseback]

This might be instructive as well:

 

[SiZi]

Ok thanks to all the fantastic advice here, it’s finally put back together and working. I suspect the amplitude is low, but I’ll wind and let it run for a day while I catch my breath, and then I’ll come back with more problems  Thanks everyone, yet again!

[SiZi]

Ok, I’m back!

One problem has been fixed - earlier the impulse jewel was not able to get in between the guard pins of the pallette fork. I adjusted the position of the jewel and now every time I give the balance a push and it moves, the palette fork engages properly with the escape wheel. However, the balance does not continue running for long. See video..

https://m.youtube.com/shorts/k67GWNZsmNo

FYI, the watch is demagnetized.

Under magnification I found that when resting, the guard pins and the impulse jewel rest to one side of the banking pins. Are they supposed to rest in the middle? If I give the balance a little tap of fiddle I can get them to the middle but otherwise they just rest to one side. I’ve tried adjusting the stud carrier but it makes no difference - I have noticed the stud carrier regulator only works if the impulse jewel is resting outside of the guard pins of the pallette fork,  it once it is in between them the stud carrier regular doesn’t do anything. I can move it to either end and the impulse jewel and pallette fork guard pins will just stay where they were resting to one side of the banking pins. Even if I push the regulator all the way to either end and then get the balance moving it just always ends up with the jewel and pins to one side. Here is a diagram to show the resting position…

Edited October 28, 2024 by SiZi

[Neverenoughwatches]

4 hours ago, SiZi said:

Ok, I’m back!

One problem has been fixed - earlier the impulse jewel was not able to get in between the guard pins of the pallette fork. I adjusted the position of the jewel and now every time I give the balance a push and it moves, the palette fork engages properly with the escape wheel. However, the balance does not continue running for long. See video..

https://m.youtube.com/shorts/k67GWNZsmNo

FYI, the watch is demagnetized.

Under magnification I found that when resting, the guard pins and the impulse jewel rest to one side of the banking pins. Are they supposed to rest in the middle? If I give the balance a little tap of fiddle I can get them to the middle but otherwise they just rest to one side. I’ve tried adjusting the stud carrier but it makes no difference - I have noticed the stud carrier regulator only works if the impulse jewel is resting outside of the guard pins of the pallette fork,  it once it is in between them the stud carrier regular doesn’t do anything. I can move it to either end and the impulse jewel and pallette fork guard pins will just stay where they were resting to one side of the banking pins. Even if I push the regulator all the way to either end and then get the balance moving it just always ends up with the jewel and pins to one side. Here is a diagram to show the resting position…

I tbink we could use a photograph of the balance, the guard pins you mention, these are the horns of the fork, the cental finger is the safety gaurd,. Learning correct names will prevent confusion

[caseback]

The movable stud carrier is not intended/suitable to adjust the position of the impuls jewel when the movement is in rest AND the pallet fork is attached. You use it when the pallet fork is out to set it up "about right" and you can use it when the movement runs to do a fine tuning of the beat error if you have a timegrapher or other timing instrument. 

If the impuls jewel (when in rest and without the pallet fork removed) is approx in the middle of the banking pins it is ok and it will not cause the movement to stop. The movement is loosing power somewhere else. 

Do the check I advised earlier (remove pallet fork, gentle push to the barrel, check what the escapewheel does).

If it looses power in the train of wheels, there are a lot of checks to do that are part of any regular service, like are the parts and jewels really really really clean, are there any damaged teeth or pivots, is there excessive side- or endshake, is the main spring ok etc, etc. 

When all that is ok and the escape wheel comes to a gentle stop when pushing the barrel and the problem is still there, you check the pallet fork and the balance individually and their interaction as well. Are there parts rubbing, is the hairspring nice and flat, etc, etc. Again all standard procedure for a regular service.

What is happening now is that you put together the watch and find it is not working. It is unneccessary difficult to find the cause or causes now. Better is to do the checks when dismantling and cleaning the movement and then do step by step system checks when assembling. If you do that, there shouldn't be any suprizes when you finally place the balance..

Edited October 28, 2024 by caseback

[SiZi]

 

7 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I tbink we could use a photograph of the balance, the guard pins you mention, these are the horns of the fork, the cental finger is the safety gaurd,. Learning correct names will prevent confusion

This movement is so tiny with parts layered on top of each other that it’s almost impossible for myself to view with a loupe at really difficult angles. I just can’t get a pic of it, hence the diagram. 

you are absolutely right about getting the vocab down  I thought the most recent post I made used the right vocab as per Mark’s online course. Have I mislabeled the parts? 

3 minutes ago, caseback said:

The movable stud carrier is not intended/suitable to adjust the position of the impuls jewel when the movement is in rest AND the pallet fork is attached. You use it when the pallet fork is out to set it up "about right" and you can use it when the movement runs to do a fine tuning of the beat error if you have a timegrapher or other timing instrument. 

If the impuls jewel (when in rest and without the pallet fork removed) is approx in the middle of the banking pins it is ok and it will not cause the movement to stop. The movement is loosing power somewhere else. 

Do the check I advised earlier (remove pallet fork, gentle push to the barrel, check what the escapewheel does).

If it looses power in the train of wheels, there are a lot of checks to do that are part of any regular service, like are the parts and jewels really really really clean, are there any damaged teeth or pivots, is there excessive side- or endshake, is the main spring ok etc, etc. 

Ones all that is ok and the escape wheel comes to a gentle stop when pushing the barrel and the problem is still there, you check the pallet fork and the balance individually and their interaction as well. Are there parts rubbing, is the hairspring nice and flat, etc, etc. Again all standard procedure for a regular service.

What is happening now is that you put together the watch and find it is not working. It is unneccessary difficult to find the cause or causes now. Better is to do the checks when dismantling and cleaning the movement and then do step by step system checks when assembling. If you do that, there shouldn't be any suprizes when you finally place the balance..

Thank you for pointing this out, I did not realize that’s how I should adjust the impulse jewel position. Let me try this and also see what happens when I just push the barrel without the pallette fork in place.

Edited October 28, 2024 by SiZi

[Klassiker]

It sounds like you have interference between the impulse jewel and either the guard pin or the fork horns (or both). By the way, the, the fork horns are what you are calling the "guard pins of the pallette fork".

Remove the escape wheel, the rest of the train, and all cocks and bridges on the movement side. You want to have just the balance and the pallet fork interacting with one another, and the best view from all angles that you can get. Ideally you would remove the hairspring too, but if you feel unsure about that, leave it.

Observe the interaction of the balance with the pallet fork. Take some good photos if you can, and report back.

[Neverenoughwatches]

26 minutes ago, SiZi said:

 

This movement is so tiny with parts layered on top of each other that it’s almost impossible for myself to view with a loupe at really difficult angles. I just can’t get a pic of it, hence the diagram. 

you are absolutely right about getting the vocab down  I thought the most recent post I made used the right vocab as per Mark’s online course. Have I mislabeled the parts? 

Thank you for pointing this out, I did not realize that’s how I should adjust the impulse jewel position. Let me try this and also see what happens when I just push the barrel without the pallette fork in place.

As Klassiker says, a free running test of the balance with everything else removed, in this situation you can then also position the impulse jewel correctly as line runing through the escape wheel , pallet fork pivots, banking pins and balance pivots. Hopefully there is enough adjustment on the beat regulator arm to do this.without clashing with the rate aduster  

[SiZi]

@caseback I removed the pallete fork and pushed the barrel gently - the train of wheels moved along with the escape wheel which then came to a gentle stop. I am assuming we can rule out the issue being from the train? 
 

@Klassikeri will now test what you have suggested and come back with pics. Also thank you for correcting my vocabulary, and @Neverenoughwatchesfor pointing this out in the first place  

I do appreciate the help that this community has been offering so promptly and generously. While I have done Mark’s course part 1 and 2 multiple times (and I’m midway with 3) it is difficult to really organize concepts or learn the vocabulary unless you start applying it in the authentic context of a repair. 
 

I’ll report back soon.

[Neverenoughwatches]

Ideally the regulator pins of the rate adjuster want to be around the middle of the hairspring's terminal curve...providing the watch's timing is correct 

[SiZi]

Ok here is a video showing the escape wheel pivot point lined up with the pallet fork pivot point lined up with the banking pins and the impulse jewel. 

Does this look ok? thanks so much for all your help!
 

 

[SiZi]

Also here’s a pic showing the line up. I’ve tried to highlight where the banking pins are in case you can’t se them clearly.  

[caseback]

1 hour ago, SiZi said:

Also here’s a pic showing the line up. I’ve tried to highlight where the banking pins are in case you can’t se them clearly.  

As already mentioned, if it's about centered it will be ok and not be the cause of the watch stopping.

You mentioned that the escapewheel comes to a gentle stop. That is nice, but no guarantee. You also seem to have some doubts about the pallet fork's "snap". 

Sometimes an escapewheel spins great when the train is not under "load", but with some wind and the pallet fork preventing the wheels from spinning, other factors come into play. There was a post on this forum very recently where the train of a desk clock of some type spun great when free, but not under load. In the end it turned out one of the wheels had a broken pivot.. Just saying, don't assume the pallet fork or balance are now the only 2 options left.