ETA 956.112 Issue after service, not running

[SwissSeiko]

Hey watchmakers, hoping to get a bit of insight from quartz specialists, as I don't see too many higher end quartz at work. I have this ETA movement, which I have cleaned and serviced according to the manual from ETA. The issue I'm having now, is once the rotor wheel is installed, my train of wheel does not want to spin freely. I have installed the wheels one at at time while reattaching the bridge, and they move just fine, but once I install the rotor wheel, they turn very hard. The pivots and jewels are all clean and inspected. The pinion on the rotor is clean. The quartz movement itself is pulsing, as my tester registers the impulses. But it doesn't have the power to rotate the wheels. I have removed all oil from the jewels in case that was the issue, to no avail. This once has me stumped. I even removed the magnet with a staking set and made sure it was flat and not rubbing on any wheels. It was running previously, but not well. I have heard that running the rotor through the ultrasonic can remove some magnification, but I have remagnetized it just in case. Any thoughts?

[HectorLooi]

How are you spinning the gear train after you put in the in rotor? Are you using a line release tool?

Check that the pivots of the rotor are not damaged. Also check that there are no metal filings and magnetic bits in the stator and on the rotor. 

Remove all the wheels and put in only the rotor and replace the pcb and see if it runs normally. The put in the wheels one at a time and see which wheel stops it.

[SwissSeiko]

12 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

How are you spinning the gear train after you put in the in rotor? Are you using a line release tool?

Check that the pivots of the rotor are not damaged. Also check that there are no metal filings and magnetic bits in the stator and on the rotor. 

Remove all the wheels and put in only the rotor and replace the pcb and see if it runs normally. The put in the wheels one at a time and see which wheel stops it.

Spinning the wheels, I'm using the horotec turbo.

 

The pivots are not damaged in any way.

 

I never thought to work backwards on the train of wheels. Ill try that. The rotor and stator are both very clean. Its a problem I haven't encountered before. 

 

Thanks for your response Hector. The picture attached is before cleaning.

Edited September 9 by SwissSeiko

[watchweasol]

Hi. As Hector has explained the rotor should pulse regardless of the wheels so follow his advice.  I do not put rotors in the ultrasonic but clean by hand.

[SwissSeiko]

2 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

Hi. As Hector has explained the rotor should pulse regardless of the wheels so follow his advice.  I do not put rotors in the ultrasonic but clean by hand.

In the event, the rotor pulses when no other wheels are present, and the wheels spin freely by hand when the rotor is removed, any ideas what my next step might be? I tested the battery and its at 1.55v so its new, and I also set my power supply to 1.55v and its the same issue.

[watchweasol]

Hi next step is to add one wheel at a time beginning with the one engaging the rotor and so on , it’s tedious I know but in order to eliminate the train or find the culprit.

If you haven’t got the tech sheet. I have added it for you.

8197_ETA 956.112.pdf

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, SwissSeiko said:

remagnetized

I'm really curious about the procedure for doing this?

Then what is the current consumption of this watch with all the wheels in?

[HectorLooi]

Could you also post photos of the pcb? Was there any signs previous battery leaks?

[Nucejoe]

  Magnetic rotor starts collecting metal debrie,  the moment you take it out of ebauche, I don't see how ultrasonic can remove metals off magnets,  use a soft  brush to clean the rotor JUST BEFORE   it goes back in the movement. Then I am clear on what for did you use a staking set , to do what?  And could you have reinstalled it upside down?

Rgds

 

[SwissSeiko]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

I'm really curious about the procedure for doing this?

Then what is the current consumption of this watch with all the wheels in?

just a light swipe on a magnetic strip. nothing technical. This was done after I discovered it wasnt running, and isnt the cause of the issue. Doubt I even did anything honestly.

1 hour ago, HectorLooi said:

Could you also post photos of the pcb? Was there any signs previous battery leaks?

PCB is fine. No battery leak

1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

  Magnetic rotor starts collecting metal debrie,  the moment you take it out of ebauche, I don't see how ultrasonic can remove metals off magnets,  use a soft  brush to clean the rotor JUST BEFORE   it goes back in the movement. Then I am clear on what for did you use a staking set , to do what?  And could you have reinstalled it upside down?

Rgds

 

I used the staking set to remove this part, what I imagine is the stator, but from the other side of the movement. There was some signs of rubbing on the corner, so I wanted to make sure it was perfectly flat.

Edited September 9 by SwissSeiko

[JohnR725]

I'm rereading the original message and I'm confused and we need some clarifications? part of problem I'm seeing is you start off with one problem you may have ended up with other problems in an attempt to fix whatever you perceive the problem of?

7 hours ago, SwissSeiko said:

The issue I'm having now, is once the rotor wheel is installed, my train of wheel does not want to spin freely. I have installed the wheels one at at time while reattaching the bridge, and they move just fine, but once I install the rotor wheel, they turn very hard.

are you using your tester to spin the thing or you pushing by hand? Typically with a quartz watch the entire gear train will spin very effortlessly because nothing holding it in place. Bots once the rotor is in it will take considerably more forced to hand spin.

7 hours ago, SwissSeiko said:

This once has me stumped. I even removed the magnet with a staking set and made sure it was flat and not rubbing on any wheels.

 

1 hour ago, SwissSeiko said:

I used the staking set to remove this part, what I imagine is the stator,

I don't suppose it occurred to you that a riveted part isn't supposed to be removed? The stator is probably one of the most important components in a quartz watch it has a very very specific shape/location if that shape is changed at all the watch may not run at all, it may run with higher current consumption or if you get really creative you can make the watch run backwards.

so basically screw with this part and that is the end of this watch you'll need a new main plate.

23 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

I don't see how ultrasonic can remove metals off magnets,

let's look at the actual quote of the problem

7 hours ago, SwissSeiko said:

I have heard that running the rotor through the ultrasonic can remove some magnification, but I have remagnetized it just in case.

one of the concerns is with some ultrasonic cleaning machines used in watch repair the ultrasonic energy is generated by a magnetic transducer. There was a concern that the magnetic field would not be good for the rotor. 

then as far as cleaning particles off the rotor it's never going to happen as the magnet is really really powerful and depending upon how clean your cleaning baths are more than likely it will enter with less stuff in a pickup everything in the machine and you'll have to clean the rotor off afterwards as it will now look fuzzy with all the magnetic stuff stuck to it

 

1 hour ago, SwissSeiko said:

just a light swipe on a magnetic strip. nothing technical. This was done after I discovered it wasnt running, and isnt the cause of the issue. Doubt I even did anything honestly.

the problem is the rotor is magnetized a very specific way and basically be impossible for you to re-magnetize it.   but if you try really hard you can destroy the magnetic field. like if put it on a demagnetizer with a pushbutton you push the button a lot of times then eventually the magnet will lose enough of its field to not function but that requires a lot of work to do that as Iditarod on occasion just to find out what can be done you can destroy your magnetic field not paying attention and try really hard.

7 hours ago, SwissSeiko said:

as my tester registers the impulses.

the problem that occasionally happens is the testers will indicate impulses but the watch still will not run because impulses are not technically correct. Then I'm assuming that you don't have any way of measuring resistance? Or for that matter you can't measure current consumption?

 

6 hours ago, SwissSeiko said:

Spinning the wheels, I'm using the horotec turbo.

did the wheels spin with your tester before you service the watch?

 

[SwissSeiko]

3 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

I'm rereading the original message and I'm confused and we need some clarifications? part of problem I'm seeing is you start off with one problem you may have ended up with other problems in an attempt to fix whatever you perceive the problem of?

are you using your tester to spin the thing or you pushing by hand? Typically with a quartz watch the entire gear train will spin very effortlessly because nothing holding it in place. Bots once the rotor is in it will take considerably more forced to hand spin.

 

I don't suppose it occurred to you that a riveted part isn't supposed to be removed? The stator is probably one of the most important components in a quartz watch it has a very very specific shape/location if that shape is changed at all the watch may not run at all, it may run with higher current consumption or if you get really creative you can make the watch run backwards.

so basically screw with this part and that is the end of this watch you'll need a new main plate.

let's look at the actual quote of the problem

one of the concerns is with some ultrasonic cleaning machines used in watch repair the ultrasonic energy is generated by a magnetic transducer. There was a concern that the magnetic field would not be good for the rotor. 

then as far as cleaning particles off the rotor it's never going to happen as the magnet is really really powerful and depending upon how clean your cleaning baths are more than likely it will enter with less stuff in a pickup everything in the machine and you'll have to clean the rotor off afterwards as it will now look fuzzy with all the magnetic stuff stuck to it

 

the problem is the rotor is magnetized a very specific way and basically be impossible for you to re-magnetize it.   but if you try really hard you can destroy the magnetic field. like if put it on a demagnetizer with a pushbutton you push the button a lot of times then eventually the magnet will lose enough of its field to not function but that requires a lot of work to do that as Iditarod on occasion just to find out what can be done you can destroy your magnetic field not paying attention and try really hard.

the problem that occasionally happens is the testers will indicate impulses but the watch still will not run because impulses are not technically correct. Then I'm assuming that you don't have any way of measuring resistance? Or for that matter you can't measure current consumption?

 

did the wheels spin with your tester before you service the watch?

 

Ok let me clarify a few items.

 

Spinning the wheels by hand, with no rotor installed, they spin freely as expected. You are correct in that installing the rotor, it becomes difficult. That's when I use the turbo, and they spun before service. Now it struggles to spin, but does slowly. The stator is not technically rivited, it's pressed in through a small hole in the plate. I just pressed it out with the staking set. It pressed back in no problem and had no alignment issues, as it it part of where the PCB screws into the plate, so I didn't mess up any alignment, shape or location. I have measured all points as stated in the service manual. The resistance is 1.78k. consumption of the movement with 1.55 v from power supply was 1.2. 

[HectorLooi]

If you loosen the screws of the top plate and spin it with the turbo, does it improve?

[SwissSeiko]

6 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

If you loosen the screws of the top plate and spin it with the turbo, does it improve?

It does not. I suspect something with the coil is the issue. Its reading resistance, but no pulse is being sent to the rotor, and all other electrical checks are seemingly fine.

Edited September 10 by SwissSeiko

[HectorLooi]

Wait, I'm confused. In your original post, there were pulses going into the coil. But now the pulses have stopped. Is that correct?

[SwissSeiko]

14 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

Wait, I'm confused. In your original post, there were pulses going into the coil. But now the pulses have stopped. Is that correct?

No, I am reading pulses from the coil, however they aren't being sent to the rotor.

[AndyGSi]

From what you've said I'd suspect the rotor and the first thing I'd be swapping out.

[SwissSeiko]

12 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

From what you've said I'd suspect the rotor and the first thing I'd be swapping out.

I hope I didn't mess it up by putting it in the ultrasonic. My experience is 98% vintage mechanical, so I'm a little out of my element. I should have researched further before cleaning it. I have a new movement coming, and wont charge the customer for it.

[AndyGSi]

For the price of a rotor here in the UK it's often a lot easier just to replace it than trying to clean all the filings off them.

[SwissSeiko]

17 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

For the price of a rotor here in the UK it's often a lot easier just to replace it than trying to clean all the filings off them.

weirdly, the rotor was clean and had no metal filings on it. I keep my bench and the ultrasonic very clean.

Edited September 10 by SwissSeiko
typo

[HectorLooi]

I never put the rotor into the ultrasonic. I just use rodico to dab off any dirt or bits stuck to it.

But before you throw away the old movement, get a spare pcb and do a swap. Sometimes a defective circuit can produce an electrical pulse but it's period is too short the drive the rotor. The pulse tester is sensitive enough to pick up the pulse but it does not test the length of the pulse.