Omega cal 684 running extremely fast

[eleve]

Hi all

I am working on an old Omega Geneve Lady version with automatic cal. 684. There were some issues with the watch. I replaced the mainspring with original Omega 683 1208 as well as the balance with original Omega 683 1327. The watch ran  well with good amplitude (260°, tiny beat error and regulated to +1s/d). Tested it for a few days and gave it to my friend.

She returned it as it would run poorly a few weeks later. The timegrapher reading is messy: scattered dots and it aborts measuring after a few seconds. It does not detect the beat but goes tries with 36000 (instead of 21600). Magentism is not the problem, Ichecked that. But I noticed one problem: the stud of the new hairspring is round (not triangular) and wasn't fully in the cock, which led to that the hairspring was not parallel but a little bit slanted. I fixed that. But still no improvement on the timegrapher.

I appreciate any help where to start as I'd like to give this watch back to its owner.

thank you so much in advance!

 

[oldhippy]

I would look at the hairspring first, make sure it is free, check for dirt a tiny hair could be the problem, Make sure the whole movement is demagnetized including the tools you use. I would certainly clean the balance again and re-oil. 

It is good practise to demagnetize first the movement you are going to work on and the tools you are going to use.  

[AndyGSi]

Are your confident that you've got the correct and genuine Omega parts?

[eleve]

 

6 hours ago, oldhippy said:

I would look at the hairspring first, make sure it is free, check for dirt a tiny hair could be the problem, Make sure the whole movement is demagnetized including the tools you use. I would certainly clean the balance again and re-oil

Thank you so much: I checked the hairspring under the microscope and there were little fibers which I removed. Moreover, I cleaned and reoild.

 

And you were right about magnetism: the hairspring is magnetised. I only have this blue chinese demagnetiser which does not work properly. Any recommendation on a device that works and doesn't cost a ton?

[eleve]

2 hours ago, AndyGSi said:

Are your confident that you've got the correct and genuine Omega parts?

Yes, my source is very reliable. All parts came in the original Omega package and were new old stock. I checked the parts

[oldhippy]

This is the type I had. but be careful there are dirt cheap one around and they are rubbish.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/AMONIDA-Demagnetizer-Professional-Demagnetize-Watchmakers/dp/B08MDV9JJZ

[RichardHarris123]

Where's the staff on the photo of the balance?  Is it an optical illusion?  The hairspring is definitely bunched together at the bottom of the photo.  My cheap demagnetiser works OK but if I'm struggling, I use my home made on. A central heating pump with the rotor removed. Any pump would do, remove the stator and that's it, scrap yards must have plenty of old pumps. 

[eleve]

2 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Where's the staff on the photo of the balance?  Is it an optical illusion?  The hairspring is definitely bunched together at the bottom of the photo.  My cheap demagnetiser works OK but if I'm struggling, I use my home made on. A central heating pump with the rotor removed. Any pump would do, remove the stator and that's it, scrap yards must have plenty of old pumps. 

It's there and ok. the balance just lies a little sweked. thx for asking

[HectorLooi]

2 hours ago, eleve said:

I only have this blue chinese demagnetiser which does not work properly. Any recommendation on a device that works and doesn't cost a ton?

The cheap blue ones do work pretty well but you have to draw the part away from the coil while pressing the little red button. And they seem to work well only when your power supply is 230VAC. If your power supply is 100/110/120 VAC, the magnetic field might be too weak the demagnetize properly. 

There are also automatic demagnetizers from China, which are a copy of the Elma but costing only a fraction.

https://a.aliexpress.com/_msLCEnw

 

[Knebo]

3 hours ago, eleve said:

 

As @RichardHarris123 wrote, this hairspring does not look right.

Another photo please? 

[nevenbekriev]

I will just copy and paste my answer from another thread for the same problem:

Guys, demagnetising this spring is like empting empty bottle. First of all, it is very hard, almost impossible to be magnetised. If it is sticky, then it must be cleaned. Usually hexane or generally pure petrol helps. If one can't obtain such materials, then He can distill some A95 petrol from the petrol station. But, sometimes petrol is not able to clean some sticky stuff and then pure acetone must be used. And, the heavy artilery - boiling in stuffs like NaOH. The last thing for sure will destroy the shellac if it is used to fix the imp. jewel, but in 2609HA there is no shellac there.

[JohnR725]

23 hours ago, eleve said:

balance with original Omega 683 1327

I went looking for pictures of the balance wheel like yours. Yours seems be suffering from a hairspring issue probably beyond magnetism. Then the stud I find it odd that the Omega replacement balance complete would have the wrong type of stud. so couple of pictures so you can see we hairspring is supposed to look like and the stud is definitely not round in this example.

here's a slightly different image where you can see the stud does not look like yours

 

 

 

[rehajm]

16 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

And they seem to work well only when your power supply is 230VAC. If your power supply is 100/110/120 VAC, the magnetic field might be too weak the demagnetize properly. 

I will attest to this. America…I worked hard to get the cheap blue one to work, then the cheap white one. I finally bit the bullet and paid up for the elma. Problem solved. Sometimes cheap is cheap…

Accept notifications of an eBay search and sign up for the email lists of the suppliers - sometimes they have flash sales…

18 hours ago, eleve said:

I cleaned and reoild

…curious what you ‘reoiled’?

[VWatchie]

On 7/22/2024 at 5:17 AM, nevenbekriev said:

Guys, demagnetising this spring is like empting empty bottle. First of all, it is very hard, almost impossible to be magnetised.

I agree that it would be hard to magnetise a balance spring to the point that the coils start to stick to one another. However, magnetised balance springs are not uncommon. Typical symptoms are an increased rate and decreased amplitude (not sticky coils). A good demagnetiser is a must and it should be used whether any magnetism has been detected or not. At the very least the movement should be demagnetised before any regulation of the rate takes place.

My current demagnetiser is a Greiner MagnOmatic which is a very serious tool that in my experience works perfectly. They show up on the flea markets now and then.

I agree with Alex (which is not always the case) in the following video:

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, VWatchie said:

I agree that it would be hard to magnetise a balance spring to the point that the coils start to stick to one another. However, magnetised balance springs are not uncommon. Typical symptoms are an increased rate and decreased amplitude (not sticky coils). A good demagnetiser is a must and it should be used whether any magnetism has been detected or not. At the very least the movement should be demagnetised before any regulation of the rate takes place.

My current demagnetiser is a Greiner MagnOmatic which is a very serious tool that in my experience works perfectly. They show up on the flea markets now and then.

I agree with Alex (which is not always the case) in the following video:

 

We did discuss this sometime ago. While non-magnetic nickle alloy hairsprings do not become magnetic themselves they can be drawn to something that is magnetic. If i remember correctly they have paramagnetic behaviour .

[nevenbekriev]

The hairspring itself will not be magnetised, but there are many other steel parts in the movement which magnetising will influence it's work.  The closer to the balance and the bigger they are, the more influence. The balance staff itself and the roller (if made of steel), the regulator and stud carrier, the pallet fork(when it is made of steel), the escape wheel, the ratchet wheel, barrel arbour, the mainspring... and all the screws at the end.

Edited July 23, 2024 by nevenbekriev

[Marc]

3 hours ago, VWatchie said:

I agree with Alex (which is not always the case) in the following video:

I don't buy Alex's line of reasoning here.

He states that the magnetised hair spring is showing no sign of sticky coils yet the rate and amplitude have been severely impacted. He shows us a video of the breathing hair spring in which sticking coils cannot be observed, and a view of the hair spring from underneath with all the coils separate. This, he claims is proof that the increased rate and decreased amplitude are not due to sticking coils and therefore must be down to something else, so he attributes it to "magnetic friction".

I believe that he is completely missing an important mechanism here which dramatically diminishes his argument for magnetic friction, ie. that of momentary sticking.

This is where the magnetism isn't quite strong enough to cause the coils to stick with the inter-coil spacing of the spring at rest, but is strong enough to cause them to momentarily stick as the inter-coil spacing is reduced when the spring breaths in, but release again as the spring breaths out and the inter-coil spacing widens enough to overcome the magnetism.

When this happens the effective hair spring length is reduced (and therefore rate increased and amplitude decreased) for that period during which the coils are close enough together for the magnetic attraction to cause them to stick, which is also when the hairspring diameter is smallest and so the whole spring is hidden by the balance cock. However as the balance spins the other way and the hairspring expands the breathing action of the spring overcomes the magnetic attraction and the coils separate again.

In Alex's video the hairspring diameter only shows us between 2 and 3 coils (excluding terminal curve) at max diameter, and no coils at all over half of the circumference at a smaller than at rest diameter. Whats more the part of the spring where the inter-coil spacing changes the most (opposite the regulator) and is therefore the part of the spring where the coils are closest at minimum diameter and most likely to stick, is completely hidden under the cock the whole time. As this is the part of the spring where coils are most likely to become momentarily stuck it is not surprising that we can't see sticking coils, even when the balance is stopped or removed and viewed from below with the balance at rest.

However that does not mean that we can't see evidence of a sticking hairspring. One of the things that I look out for is trembling coils. By this I mean coils that vibrate as the coil expands. A spring that has no sticking coils at all breaths in and out smoothly as the balance oscillates. On the other hand if two coils momentarily stick and then suddenly release, the spring will vibrate like a plucked guitar string, and this can be seen even when no actual stuck together coils are in evidence. This is easier to observe in lower beat movements, but can be seen in 28000bph movements as well. I don't think that Alex's video is clear enough to be sure but I think I can see it there.

I don't know enough about electromagnetic induction to be able to comment on the magnetic friction theory other than to say that my gut feeling is skeptical.

[Terrinecold]

What I can tell you about electromagnetic induction is that if you move a conductor within a magnetic field currents will be induced in the conductor and will dissipate through resistance.  This will create a breaking force on the moving conductor.  It is not called magnetic friction but it does happen for sure and is used in many devices.

Now whether the magnetic field involves in a watch are strong enough for this to actually have an effect I wouldn't be able to say, they would be very small no the other hand a watch is very sensitive so...

[watchweasol]

Cheap demag unit, voice coil from a disc drive, trans former from a VDU supply cost zero pounds.  Put your tweezers in twice job done.  I can demag the car in that machine. Whole watch or pocket watch, that’s the coil size.

[praezis]

A never ending and so rewarding (to some) story of magnetism in watches …

A certain German forum loves it, and such threads get 2-digit page numbers easily.

I undertook extensive experiments there with magnetized hairsprings. 
Even Nivarox hairsprings will get magnetized (not quite as easily as steel). 

And in magnetized state coils didn‘t stick together. I never understood, why they should. Do magnet poles of equal polarity stick together cause they are ‚magnets’ ? Surely not.

The rate with magnetized Nivarox hairspring differed by several dozen s/day and returned to zero unmagnetized.

I am with the suspicion that external forces between hairspring and surrounding steel parts influence the rate.

Frank

[Marc]

3 minutes ago, Terrinecold said:

What I can tell you about electromagnetic induction is that if you move a conductor within a magnetic field currents will be induced in the conductor and will dissipate through resistance.  This will create a breaking force on the moving conductor.  It is not called magnetic friction but it does happen for sure and is used in many devices.

Now whether the magnetic field involves in a watch are strong enough for this to actually have an effect I wouldn't be able to say, they would be very small no the other hand a watch is very sensitive so...

Indeed, and I believe that this very effect is used by Seiko to regulate its Spring Drive movements. However, to generate a sufficient braking force the Spring Drive regulator uses what appear to be fairly substantial coils and presumably spinning permanent magnets to work.

With a magnetised hair spring in a conventional escapement the hair spring isn't spinning, so neither is the magnetic field, in fact it's really only moving by a tiny amount in and out as the spring breaths, and there are no coils, just a relatively small number of discrete components.

My (flawed) understanding of how magnetic braking may work is that when a magnetic field is moved across a conductor it induces an electrical current in the conductor which it's self generates it's own magnetic field which opposes the original moving magnetic field. The strength of the braking effect is a function of how fast the moving field is moving, how many times it intercepts the conductor (how may turns of the coil), and how strong the moving field is. In this case the more the merrier, creating a bigger braking effect.

I'm not saying that this doesn't happen in a conventional escapement when the H/S is magnetised, simply that the relatively small and slow movement of the H/S (and thus the magnetic field), coupled with the relatively small number of times it intercepts the conductor (no coils),  and a relatively weak magnetic field (compared with proper permanent magnets) all add up to a relatively insignificant total when compared with a momentarily sticking hair spring.

Like I said, this is gut feeling and intuition on my part and I would be very interested to hear what someone with better knowledge of induced magnetic fields (like just about anyone) would have to say.

[praezis]

Link added

[JohnR725]

15 minutes ago, Marc said:

I'm not saying that this doesn't happen in a conventional escapement when the H/S is magnetised, simply that the relatively small and slow movement of the H/S (and thus the magnetic field), coupled with the relatively small number of times it intercepts the conductor (no coils),  and a relatively weak magnetic field (compared with proper permanent magnets) all add up to a relatively insignificant total when compared with a momentarily sticking hair spring.

so basically what you're saying is magnetized hairsprings are overrated as to the consequences of them being magnetized? Here's a image from a timing machine manual they show an interesting sine wave effect that could occur

then does it really look like this well sort of it depends upon the timing machine. Normally most people will demagnetize their watch before even putting it on the timing machine. so normally this is something you should never see at all.

except a long time ago somebody purchased a Chinese 1000 timing machine apply recommendation and he was bewildered by his collection of watches. his meant I did not follow the normal procedure but instead placed all of his watches one of time on his timing machine and for reference compared the mine and you'll notice in this image magnetized watch

then identical watch demagnetized and now comes some other interesting things. There is a minor problem of it's really hard to synchronize both timing machines's they're always be a little bit of variation of exactly what part of the waveform they're averaging but to still really close. you will notice there is not a spectacular amount of it's running fast because it's magnetized. Yes this watch along with several other was watches were extremely desperately in need of proper servicing. So the amplitude totally sucks and yes the watch is out of beat.

then this is not a modern hairspring this is a blued steel I believe it was a Howard pocket watch. So obviously it's going to be much greater affected by magnetism that a modern watch but it does show there is in fact. Often times at work they forget to demagnetize wintertime a modern watches so if they see anything that looks a little off then they'll do what they're supposed to do to make things look a little better so true it's not a spectacular amount but it can be seen on the timing machine.

 

[Marc]

6 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

so basically what you're saying is magnetized hairsprings are overrated as to the consequences of them being magnetized?

Not at all. What I am saying is that the effect of magnetism in a scenario where the coils do not stick together is significantly less the impact that sticking coils has. I'm certainly not trying to suggest that magnetism has no discernible effect.

It's interesting to note the differences between Alex's magnetised trace in his video, which I would (rightly or wrongly, I'm happy to learn) attribute to a shortened effective hair spring length and the wavy traces you presented above which might be explained by magnetised wheels with poles whose orientations change relative to each other periodically as the wheels turn relative to each other.

@praezis there's nothing like a bit of experimentation, and while you were posting your link (worth a read) I was torturing an old Nivarox hair spring from an ETA 2879 with the neodymium magnet out of an old hard drive to see if I could get the coils to stick together, and I couldn't. The spring was deflected by the magnetic field but nothing stuck. I had no means of measuring the degree to which the H/S was actually magnetised though so not very scientific, and it may not have become magnetised at all.

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, Marc said:

ETA 2879 with the neodymium magnet out of an old hard drive to see if I could get the coils to stick together, and I couldn't.

I think classic laypeople think that magnetized hairsprings are stuck together. But they would be running it so insanely fast if they were the timing machine wouldn't even show anything at all at least not the conventional timing machine and even then you'd be going insanely fast. I think you're more likely to see worst-case scenario what I showed down to just minor variations. Then yes is not fun putting a super magnet on top of the balance wheel. Not something normally recommend but interesting thing to do anyway.