My first pocket watch - Arnex

[rossjackson01]

I have been asked to repair a pocket watch. 

I have done the disassemble and checked all parts. Not going to rush. 

It has a dial - Arnex. Can anyone help me with the movement please. TU 6498 are the markings

Thank you

Ross

 

[RichardHarris123]

Unitas.  

https://ranfft.org/caliber/10349-Unitas-6498

 

Why isn't it working?

Another link with the incabloc 

https://calibercorner.com/eta-caliber-6498-1/

 

[rossjackson01]

Thank you Richard.

Not sure why it does not run. Maybe old oil? It has never been opened before. I am the first. 

The balance moved OK. The pallet fork moved side to side OK. However, although the watch accepted a wind, the train did not move. All of the pivots and wheels appear correct. No damage. I have noted that the jewels and pivots are completely dry. There appears to have been no lubrication at all. No wear on any jewel or hole. Maybe it stopped because of that. I hope so. Possible the owner di not do anything when it first stopped. As I said, virgin interior.

I am using brass tweezer to make sure there is no scratches, and am being extra careful with screw removal. No scratches or deformity as of yet. Want to keep it that way on assembly. 

Already pegged. 

Tomorrow I will do a full clean and be ready to begin the reassembly.

So looking forward to this. 

 

 

Edited May 27 by rossjackson01
spelling

[RichardHarris123]

Sounds like it needs a service, let us know. 

[ManSkirtBrew]

What do you know, we're twinsies!

Mine was just dried lubricant in the train stopping it up, but I also found a broken mainspring so I'm waiting on one of those now.

Looking forward to your progress!

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

I have been asked to repair a pocket watch. 

I have done the disassemble and checked all parts. Not going to rush. 

It has a dial - Arnex. Can anyone help me with the movement please. TU 6498 are the markings

Thank you

Ross

 

Ebauches group, Unitas (UT) SA 

[JohnR725]

18 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Ebauches group, Unitas (UT) SA

Unitas Was the original Swiss manufacturer now of course it's made by Swatch group or specifically ETA. I have a link to their website and while I was there I downloaded the tech sheet for you which I'm attaching.

Oh and as this is the  newest version of the tech sheet it of course has the etachron regulation system which Yours being the older version does not but otherwise everything else is exactly the same.

https://shopb2b.eta.ch/en/6498-1-6498-1-5.html

1 hour ago, rossjackson01 said:

The balance moved OK. The pallet fork moved side to side OK. However, although the watch accepted a wind, the train did not move. All of the pivots and wheels appear correct. No damage. I have noted that the jewels and pivots are completely dry. There appears to have been no lubrication at all. No wear on any jewel or hole. Maybe it stopped because of that. I hope so. Possible the owner di not do anything when it first stopped. As I said, virgin interior

Nice that you're the first one that's there it's always bad with other people been there before you as they can get very creative with things that will cause problems.

Then don't think of this is a pocket watch think of it as a large wristwatch because that's basically what it is. It's why it's the classic choice for training watch repair. Although usually for training and watch repair we recommend purchasing the clone eight by the Chinese as it's considerably cheaper than the Swiss version that you have. But otherwise this is basically just a really large wristwatch very nicely made and they typically run very very well.

 

ct_6498-1_fde_482382_10.pdf

[rossjackson01]

John

Thank you so much for the information and attached file. Have downloaded and read it twice already. Good innit? The oil directions are superb. As you said, wrist watch. I am treating it as such. The first training watch from Mark's course is the 6498. I had purchased the 6497. I thought I somehow knew what to do with the watch. My first watch, and now my first Pocket watch. Good when a plan comes together.

As I said. Really enjoying this one.

[rossjackson01]

Update

Learning by my observations.

Looking under the microscope it is obvious I am not the first. Minute scratches on the pallet bridge. Found the problem. The train of wheels bridge had not been placed correct. Pivot hole on the second wheel was lifted by pressure on the screws. None of the train would turn. The pallet fork jewels were misaligned. Spring on the jewel for balance on the dial side was broken. The balance would not rotate as the pallet fork would not engage. Hairspring was out of shape.  It had obviously never worked since the last person did the 'service'. 

Priced replacement pallet fork and balance. Cheaper to get a new movement. Conversed with owner. This is what he wants. Ah well.

Edited May 28 by rossjackson01

[RichardHarris123]

New movement or parts?

[rossjackson01]

1 hour ago, RichardHarris123 said:

New movement or parts?

New movement. I have told him that it will be an old watch but a new movement. He is happy with that. 

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, rossjackson01 said:

Priced replacement pallet fork and balance. Cheaper to get a new movement

Out of curiosity I don't suppose you want to share the prices? Yes it would be cheaper to get a Chinese clone but this is not a Chinese clone this is a Swiss 6498 and the last time I looked brand-new movements are extremely expensive.

I see the answer has materialized before I Finished this

1 minute ago, rossjackson01 said:

New movement. I have told him that it will be an old watch but a new movement. He is happy with that. 

I'm still curious genuine Swiss because as I said the last time I looked they were rather expensive. Although taken a quick look at eBay it looks I can get a movement For approximately $130. Otherwise I'm seeing silly prices starting at $400.

1 hour ago, rossjackson01 said:

I am not the first

This is the unfortunate problem of anything that is well watch repair Somebody in there before you that didn't grasp what they were doing and now you have to pick up the pieces. It seems be unfortunately the world of the watch the more pieces of the stuff you have to deal with. I suppose it's a miracle that in the watch runs at all. On the other hand the number of amateur parts destroyers of watches versus the quality of watches well that's probably a good thing that there only a tiny percentage of

[rossjackson01]

John

I have seen the information of the internet regarding Arnex

https://theoldtimey.com/arnex-pocket-watch/#Arnex Watch Value

https://adelstein-workshop.com/arnex-watches/

Very interesting. oldttimey estimates a value of £75, if everything is original.  Can't find an original movement as a donor. Silly prices wanted for a full donor watch. I can get an st3600 6497 for £40. Owner is more concerned wit the 'look'. 

What I am pleased about is that by learning from others, I have been able to rebuild to the point where I was able to understand why it would not work. I know that I am not very good with describing my work. But achieving the outcome has been good for my ego. Know what the problems were. Know my limitations. Chuffed.

[Terrinecold]

40 pounds sounds like too much I got one last week for $30 shipped from AliExpress.

Keep us updated with the result.  I also just started and have 3 ST36, one I broke and two I am practicing with.  For one of those two I have ordered a wristwatch case+dial and hands but I though it would be nice to use the other one as a pocket watch but I found another thread here saying it may be difficult to fix it in the case due to the lack of tabs for it.  However on the pictures (I am not at home close to the movement) I see some holes where the screws holding the movement in your case seem to be.

 

[rossjackson01]

Upadate.

I'm tired and taking a break for the evening. So, time to tell you all.

If you have read up to this point you will know that it was decided to put a new movement into the old pocket watch. 

Had a thought. 2 1/2 years and put a new movement in? Gosh how to demonstrate my skill? Well, guess what? Not going to happen. I have decided do do myself a favour and practice what I have been taught.

This watch will work.

Doing what JohnR275 said in and old post to me. If there is a problem. Don't look where the problem is. Go back and find what causes the problem.

I know the train did not work originally, and I had fixed that. Balance off. Pallet off. Train wheel bridge removed. OK lets go.

Bridge back on. Wheels all move freely and with a very small return. Pallet for fork installed. Move pallet fork back and forth. OK. Power applied to mainspring.  Back and forth ok. Time for the balance. Fitted and no motion. Checked all elements of location. Seems correct. Escape wheel does not rotate. Move the pallet fork.  OK. Other than manual move. Nothing. 

Using my trusty loupe, I see that the entry pallet is not clearing the foot of the escape wheel. Pressure on the pallet and the escape does. Ah! There is not enough clearance from the post. Surgery required. Never done it, but seen it. Bend the opposite post. Very gentle and careful pressure. 7 attempts. Pallett fork clears the foot. 

Pallet and balance installed. 

Motion, but so slow you can see the pallet moving. Have I got it wrong? Timegrapher. Demagnetise first. Must be winter. Snow storm. But does not maintain a reading. Balance out, reinstall 4 times. Finally a reading. No speed rate. Amplitude 184. No beat error. 

I'll leave it ticking.

Dial side completed. Dial on and hands fitted. Great to see that it keeps time. 

No reading is a problem.  Need to fix this. Dial is now off for safety. Balance off an checked. Seating is correct. End play is ok on all pivots. Re-installed balance. 230 Amplitue. Still looks slow. But maybe it is because the balance is larger than I am used to, this being a pocket watch.

No other reading.

I have just removed all again. Checked the train. Pallet seem to more crisp.  Balance installed. Shake and it works but comes to rests after a few second. Infuriating. Back to square one. Tomorrow is another day.

I will find out why. You have not trained me so that I can give up.

 

 

 

Edited May 29 by rossjackson01
spelling

[RichardHarris123]

The wheel train runs freely , with a slight reversal?  If so, all OK with the wheel train.  Does the pallet snap back and forth or do you have to push it?  For example, push slightly left, it snaps to the left and vise versa.  If it does snap, then the problem is with the balance. 

[VWatchie]

When I started in service and repair, Arnex pocket watches were by far the cheapest way to get Unitas Cal. 6498. I bought four NOS examples from the USA for about 350 US dollars. That was a few years ago and long before the pandemic, so I think you would have to pay at least double that today as the general interest in watches and watch repair exploded during the pandemic.

[rossjackson01]

1 hour ago, RichardHarris123 said:

The wheel train runs freely , with a slight reversal?  If so, all OK with the wheel train.  Does the pallet snap back and forth or do you have to push it?  For example, push slightly left, it snaps to the left and vise versa.  If it does snap, then the problem is with the balance. 

Initially the snap was very slow both ways. Now it is faster. Left is a good snap. Right is slower. Any advice and information will be greatly received. Ta.

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

Initially the snap was very slow both ways. Now it is faster. Left is a good snap. Right is slower. Any advice and information will be greatly received. Ta.

I'm a bit concerned that you moved the position of a banking pin. I understand why you did that Ross,. but escapement adjustments are a whole new learning ball game. When a banking pin is moved it also affects what happens with the lock of the other stone, not only that it also affects whats happening at the opposite end of the pallet fork, namely the fork end. 

 

[JohnR725]

7 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

Have I got it wrong?

I see that someone is already beaten me to my concern.

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I'm a bit concerned that you moved the position of a banking pin

7 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

Using my trusty loupe, I see that the entry pallet is not clearing the foot of the escape wheel. Pressure on the pallet and the escape does. Ah! There is not enough clearance from the post. Surgery required. Never done it, but seen it. Bend the opposite post. Very gentle and careful pressure. 7 attempts. Pallett fork clears the foot. 

The problem is the banking pin is a safety feature and is only they are for horn clearance which you seem to have. The problem with some of the safety features on the watch are yes you can move them to get your pallet fork to clear but you going to screw something up in the process. So be best if you put the banking pins back where you found it and we can evaluate your pallet fork as that's where the problem is.

Then from your description up above it wasn't quite clear to me what was wrong with the pallet fork in the first place? I'm guessing that somebody has knocked the stone out of alignment and it's probably out to four needs to move back just a little bit and then the clearance will be fine.

 

 

On 5/28/2024 at 3:38 PM, rossjackson01 said:

Very interesting. oldttimey estimates a value of £75, if everything is original.  Can't find an original movement as a donor. Silly prices wanted for a full donor watch. I can get an st3600 6497 for £40. Owner is more concerned wit the 'look'. 

Then a minor little correction here you have a 6498 and you mention purchasing a 6497. I snipped out images yes there both pocket watches that are identical in size and other than the plates the parts are all identical but there is a difference visually. Notice where the crown is in relationship to the secondhand? In other words the 6498 your crown is found at the 3 o'clock position Versus the 6497 where the crown is at the 12 o'clock position.

 

Then I believe I did point out or warned you that the Swiss 6497/98 is an extremely popular Swiss watch movement. There is why the Chinese have cloned it it's very very popular. Unfortunately the Swiss version if anybody knows that it's a Swiss watch then their price will be much much higher.

6 hours ago, VWatchie said:

When I started in service and repair, Arnex pocket watches were by far the cheapest way to get Unitas Cal. 6498. I bought four NOS examples from the USA for about 350 US dollars. That was a few years ago and long before the pandemic, so I think you would have to pay at least double that today as the general interest in watches and watch repair exploded during the pandemic.

This unfortunately explains exactly what I was commenting about which is anyone selling a Swiss pocket watch who happens to list the movement number then the price will be expensive.

I was thinking you are joking about the double price but yes I saw one for $700 very bizarre because when I was purchasing the watches I was getting them for under $40. Although technically that meant that I had to be really good at spotting that it was a full size pocket watch rather than a tiny movement a pocket watch case and the back had to be on. In other words the seller didn't know what they were selling and no one else knew what it was they were cheap. Although sometimes they were not a 6497 they would be an earlier version but still there were Swiss movements.

Looking right now at eBay here's a movement.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/395372071542

But I really do think you should attempt to fix this this is a watch repair discussion group we should do a repair or worst-case just replace the pallet fork and remember to put your banking pins back where you found it

[rossjackson01]

3 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

I see that someone is already beaten me to my concern.

But I really do think you should attempt to fix this this is a watch repair discussion group we should do a repair or worst-case just replace the pallet fork and remember to put your banking pins back where you found it

Thank you all for your informations.

I will do as suggested. Return the pin to its original position. Replace the pallet fork. I have ordered the correct 6498 movement. I will install the new movement and finish the pocket watch.  I will return both, the pocket watch and the old movement to the owner.

I do apologise to you all.

It is obvious to me that I have not learned or understood the skills correctly.

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

Thank you all for your informations.

I will do as suggested. Return the pin to its original position. Replace the pallet fork. I have ordered the correct 6498 movement. I will install the new movement and finish the pocket watch.  I will return both, the pocket watch and the old movement to the owner.

I do apologise to you all.

It is obvious to me that I have not learned or understood the skills correctly.

Not at all Ross, moving the banking pins without knowing the full potential consequences is a very very common occurrence. I remember a very long time and very popular youtuber who is a highly regarded member here making that exact same mistake, and didnt seem understand the theory behind it. Certainly dont beat yourself up about it Ross, I've only just grasped the concept of it in the last year from reading over and over. Dig up some detailed  diagrams, plan through views of the escapement and balance including the banking arrangement,  blow them up to big pictures. Study them over and over and what happens when things like banking pins are moved and pallet stones are moved in and out . And how the impulse pin /fork horn clearances can change and how the guide pin/ small roller clearances can change.  Took me ages to figure some of it out and I'm still not quite there straightaway without scratching my head for a minute

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

I do apologise to you all.

You definitely do not need to apologize to us this is not apologizing thing. The reality is you should be congratulated for what you did?

4 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

t is obvious to me that I have not learned or understood the skills correctly.

I often relate learning watch repair is the same as learning to be a doctor. But with additional challenges at a hobbyist level.

In an ideal world if you could go to a school either to be a doctor or watchmaker. You would have lessons you would read material you would study and then you to practice lessons. Then when you get out of school you would be a professional? Well not exactly you would continue to practice everybody's practicing everybody on this group is practicing anyone who does not practicing well just isn't paying attention at all. Learning to be a doctor and a watchmaker is a continuous learning process a never ending process with complications to the hobbyist.

 

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

moving the banking pins without knowing the full potential consequences is a very very common occurrence. I remember a very long time and very popular youtuber who is a highly regarded member here making that exact same mistake, and didnt seem understand the theory behind it.

The problem for hobbyist is you don't have formal training. This means relying on the education from popular YouTube people for instance is one of the most common ways people are learning right now. Basically you don't have structured learning and as quoted above people on YouTube well they have impressive videos and have a eager following do not necessarily know what they're doing. Yes there are some good people on YouTube but.

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Study them over and over and

Learning of the escapement is quite an interesting process. Having given lectures on the escapement I feel that people need at least three times to see the same lecture to grasp that it's not entirely that complicated at least understand how it works. At least it is up until you have a problem then things get dreadfully complicated. As I said watch repair is all about studying analyzing repairing and practicing and probably a few other things that I forgot the mention.

Then for learning the escapement I have a complicated hand. It's complicated because it's actually made up of a whole bunch of bits and pieces of handouts and it also was the handouts of the lecture. But still it has a lot of information all in one place

On PDF page 26 of the handout we get the image below. As you can see it can change the lock of the escapement especially if the pallets tones are not quite where there supposed to be like one of yours is so it you fix the problem of a pallet fork issue by moving the banking. Which would be fine except consequences. The only purpose for the moving banking pins is the horn clearance everything else has to be adjusted in some other fashion like moving the pallet stones.

One of the things we really need somebody to do would be to 3-D print the escapement model?When I was in school we had a nice escapement model exactly like the one found in the picture below. Yes these come up for sale on eBay and yes there are extremely expensive.  the book is more likely to come up for sale them the escapement model and even the book especially that particular edition with the raised cover tends to be more expensive then they later versions were just hasn't plain book cover

I was currently searching for an price of escapement model because I know that wostep was selling them for their partnership schools and looks like yes you can get one. Before order form even lets you order more than one how nice.

http://www.wostep.ch/en/webform/educational-models

What I really was looking for also was a picture of their's kisses not as nice as the one down below because the one down below would've been even more expensive to manufacture. But I did stumble across another hand out and I'm just going to attach it I haven't taken the time to read to see how good or bad it is but I see a number of like 6498 which looks familiar?

Well I found was looking for got a picture and of course the price again so now we can see what a escapement model looks like

https://www.wostep.ch/en/boutique

I didn't even realize they had a boutique They definitely did not have one when I was going to school. On the other hand they've gotten so much bigger than when I was there.

Escapement handout wostep nscc.pdf SwissLvrEscp 6498 setting up.pdf

[rossjackson01]

Then from your description up above it wasn't quite clear to me what was wrong with the pallet fork in the first place? I'm guessing that somebody has knocked the stone out of alignment and it's probably out to four needs to move back just a little bit and then the clearance will be fine.

John. Not capable of moving a stone. Nor I have the facility to do so. But, thank you for the information. Good read though.

Edited May 30 by rossjackson01

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

You definitely do not need to apologize to us this is not apologizing thing. The reality is you should be congratulated for what you did?

I often relate learning watch repair is the same as learning to be a doctor. But with additional challenges at a hobbyist level.

In an ideal world if you could go to a school either to be a doctor or watchmaker. You would have lessons you would read material you would study and then you to practice lessons. Then when you get out of school you would be a professional? Well not exactly you would continue to practice everybody's practicing everybody on this group is practicing anyone who does not practicing well just isn't paying attention at all. Learning to be a doctor and a watchmaker is a continuous learning process a never ending process with complications to the hobbyist.

 

The problem for hobbyist is you don't have formal training. This means relying on the education from popular YouTube people for instance is one of the most common ways people are learning right now. Basically you don't have structured learning and as quoted above people on YouTube well they have impressive videos and have a eager following do not necessarily know what they're doing. Yes there are some good people on YouTube but.

Learning of the escapement is quite an interesting process. Having given lectures on the escapement I feel that people need at least three times to see the same lecture to grasp that it's not entirely that complicated at least understand how it works. At least it is up until you have a problem then things get dreadfully complicated. As I said watch repair is all about studying analyzing repairing and practicing and probably a few other things that I forgot the mention.

Then for learning the escapement I have a complicated hand. It's complicated because it's actually made up of a whole bunch of bits and pieces of handouts and it also was the handouts of the lecture. But still it has a lot of information all in one place

On PDF page 26 of the handout we get the image below. As you can see it can change the lock of the escapement especially if the pallets tones are not quite where there supposed to be like one of yours is so it you fix the problem of a pallet fork issue by moving the banking. Which would be fine except consequences. The only purpose for the moving banking pins is the horn clearance everything else has to be adjusted in some other fashion like moving the pallet stones.

One of the things we really need somebody to do would be to 3-D print the escapement model?When I was in school we had a nice escapement model exactly like the one found in the picture below. Yes these come up for sale on eBay and yes there are extremely expensive.  the book is more likely to come up for sale them the escapement model and even the book especially that particular edition with the raised cover tends to be more expensive then they later versions were just hasn't plain book cover

I was currently searching for an price of escapement model because I know that wostep was selling them for their partnership schools and looks like yes you can get one. Before order form even lets you order more than one how nice.

http://www.wostep.ch/en/webform/educational-models

What I really was looking for also was a picture of their's kisses not as nice as the one down below because the one down below would've been even more expensive to manufacture. But I did stumble across another hand out and I'm just going to attach it I haven't taken the time to read to see how good or bad it is but I see a number of like 6498 which looks familiar?

Well I found was looking for got a picture and of course the price again so now we can see what a escapement model looks like

https://www.wostep.ch/en/boutique

I didn't even realize they had a boutique They definitely did not have one when I was going to school. On the other hand they've gotten so much bigger than when I was there.

Escapement handout wostep nscc.pdf 1.86 MB · 0 downloads SwissLvrEscp 6498 setting up.pdf 216.52 kB · 0 downloads

Great information as always John.  These 3 models are fanatastic and i will end up with one eventually. @rossjackson01 The problem is we can't see much of what is going on at all, this is happening under the balance so its difficult to grasp how it works with things in the way. How about just printing off a big A4 picture of these two models to study Ross . The first one shows the escapement from underneath the second is from the top where we look down from but without the balance being in the way. In the first picure you can see that moving the left banking pin outwards will reduce the depth of stone lock on the right side but it will increase the lock on that left side that the pin was moved outwards. Looking at the fork end, as the impulse pin comes back around to enter the slot from the left, the clearance between the left horn and the pin as it enters the fork slot will have now increased also bringing the inside of the right horn further in which may now be rubbing on the small roller, the pin may also not strike the right horn in an efficient manner to roll back out smoothy, these 2 problems might slow up the oscillations or stop the movement. Next the guide pin is a safety feature preventing the movement from becoming overbanked ( pin on the wrong side of the fork unable to enter and realease the escapement ) without the guidepin and small roller a jolt to the watch can flick the pallet to the opposite banking pin, overbanking the watch. If a knock happens with a guide pin in place, the guide pin taps the small roller and then returns the pallet fork back to its original banking pin positio leaving the fork slot ready to accept the impulse pin again. So moving a banking pin outwards also increases that clearance the guide pin has with the small roller. Just print of these two pictures Ross and study different scenarios with them.

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

and as quoted above people on YouTube well they have impressive videos and have a eager following do not necessarily know what they're doing. Yes there are some good people on YouTube but.

This youtuber actually came to the forum looking for advice after making the same mistake of moving the banking pins without realising what would happen. Personally i thought he would have had enough experience to know and understand, obviously not. I guess it's a very common overlooked mistake. 

Edited May 30 by Neverenoughwatches