Seiko 5 Gaining - Suggestions?

[jdm]

 But make sure you can still move the regulator I'm not sure how much rotation it would take but I suspect if you get carried away you can rotate the regulator to the point of bending the hairspring.

 

Good point. So in the NH25 / 36 tech guide, that is nothing but a re-edition of the same we read:

 

Regulator pin … Gap adjustment of balance spring and regulator pin

Anticlockwise rotation

No clockwise rotation

 

It has been explained to me in another venues that this is because the curb pins are oblique to the head, I saw various pics but to be honest it is very difficult (for me at least)  to see on the actual part.

[ricardopalamino]

Good point. So in the NH25 / 36 tech guide, that is nothing but a re-edition of the same we read:

 

Regulator pin … Gap adjustment of balance spring and regulator pin

Anticlockwise rotation

No clockwise rotation

 

It has been explained to me in another venues that this is because the curb pins are oblique to the head, I saw various pics but to be honest it is very difficult (for me at least)  to see on the actual part.

 

Hi jdm , I think I am being oblique in understanding what the second and third phrases mean...

 

The first refers to the gap that the hairspring is resting in. Not top wide or loose , not too tight or "pinching" the spring...

but I am not sure what the  " Anticlockwise rotation "  or "No clockwise rotation " , phrases refer to .  Can you please clarify for me . 

 

Thanks a Lot , Louis

[jdm]

Hi jdm , I think I am being oblique in understanding what the second and third phrases mean...

 

The first refers to the gap that the hairspring is resting in. Not top wide or loose , not too tight or "pinching" the spring...

but I am not sure what the  " Anticlockwise rotation "  or "No clockwise rotation " , phrases refer to .  Can you please clarify for me . 

Foreword, I'm a beginner at this.

I think it simply means that reducing the gap (starting from curb pins perpendicular to hs) must be done rotating anti clockwise, because that positions them better to the curve, and reduces the risk of kinking it. See page 13 of the attached.

nh3_TG.pdf

[JohnR725]

One of the things that we cannot see in the current PDFs is the shape of the regulator pins? Looking at the PDF I have and we get a top view of a slot but we don't actually see the shape of the pins themselves? I had just assumed that the surfaces were rounded equivalent to round pins but what if they're not? So the reason for the one direction of rotation is because that puts the correct surface against the hairspring versus the other direction which may not have a suitable surface.

[JohnR725]

So the link below is an interesting dictionary. To make use of it click the flag corresponding to whatever language you using. Then you'll see on the list Etachron. Then go through the images complete with animation of how it works.

 

What's interesting is the shape of the pins it shouldn't really matter which way you rotate to get it to be tight yet they show going in a clockwise direction?

 

 

http://www.eta.ch/dictionary/dictionary.html

[jdm]

One of the things that we cannot see in the current PDFs is the shape of the regulator pins? Looking at the PDF I have and we get a top view of a slot but we don't actually see the shape of the pins themselves? I had just assumed that the surfaces were rounded equivalent to round pins but what if they're not? So the reason for the one direction of rotation is because that puts the correct surface against the hairspring versus the other direction which may not have a suitable surface.

 

Not sure about the shape of the curb pins. See pic in the following article. Interestingly the author is unhappy with the system, because he says this system can easily lead the hs being deformed, but I think that is to because he tried to correct an off-center hs using stud and regulator, something for which these are not intended. He ended correcting the hs manually.

http://www.orologiko.it/forum/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=34429

What's interesting is the shape of the pins it shouldn't really matter which way you rotate to get it to be tight yet they show going in a clockwise direction?

 

 

http://www.eta.ch/dictionary/dictionary.html

 

The ETA animation has the hs coiled in the opposite direction than a Seiko.

[JohnR725]

Not sure about the shape of the curb pins. See pic in the following article. Interestingly the author is unhappy with the system, because he says this system can easily lead the hs being deformed, but I think that is to because he tried to correct an off-center hs using stud and regulator, something for which these are not intended. He ended correcting the hs manually.

http://www.orologiko.it/forum/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=34429

 

The ETA animation has the hs coiled in the opposite direction than a Seiko.

 

Google's translation of the article is typical of technical translations it leaves a lot to be desired. This means I have to can a guess at what he's trying to say and look at the images.

 

So the person is definitely unhappy with the system and unhappy because the hairspring is not centered. So in the pictures he nicely marked the things he's playing with.Which are  rotating the regulator and bending the hairspring physically. The initial problem appears to be the hairspring is not centered in the regulator pins due to the stud not being in the correct position. This causes the hairspring to be off-center and it doesn't appear that he ever actually rotates the stud only the regulator and that pushes the hairspring even more off-center. So the final solution was to bend a hairspring which is not what was supposed to be done.

 

This is one of those clever things watch companies do and they do not give instructions leaving watchmakers to conclusions which are not always correct on how to fix the problem.

 

So providing the hairspring has the terminal curve where it's supposed to be the system is actually quite easy to adjust. One of the places I see people having problems is when you disassemble and clean the watch there is no need to remove the balance from the bridge. In other words you can leave the regulator the stud all of that exactly where they are. So on initial disassembly the balance bridge balance wheel come off as one component. After everything's been removed it goes back in with it screw to make sure it doesn't fall off on cleaning. The jewels are easily removable and their removed. They clean better when they're out of the watch. This way the balance is protected between the bridge  the main plate the pivots are exposed for cleaning and you don't have to screw up the etachron system. So basically with all modern watches where the jewels can be removed conveniently you don't have to remove the balance from the bridge makes things a lot easier.

[JohnR725]

I was curious about Seiko and the Etachron system googling reveals that  a lot of people are having problems with their Seiko. There are a lot of online discussion groups with people having issues with their regulating system.. There is even references to this discussion currently going on.

 

Then in one of the groups I saw something quite puzzling which was the claim the Seiko has a patent on the Etachron ssystem which seems strange as I assumed  they were just licensing it from the Swiss.. Plus a comment made that change the system.. So usually companies will take out patents in a multiple of countries this is the US version of the Seiko patent.. Nice description of how it's supposed to work  and really nice drawings showing the regulator pins.. .

 

http://www.google.com/patents/US20070091729

 

Then  I was trying to find the eta patent it is referenced in the Seiko patent it can be found at this link. Notice it's just the regulator pins  it's not the entire system and the pins are a little different shape..

 

https://www.google.com/patents/US4083179

[64americandeluxe]

Foreword, I'm a beginner at this.

I think it simply means that reducing the gap (starting from curb pins perpendicular to hs) must be done rotating anti clockwise, because that positions them better to the curve, and reduces the risk of kinking it. See page 13 of the attached.

Thanks for the link to the nh3 pdf file JDM. This file has very clear diagrams of the required adjustments. The Seiko service instructions I have for my 7S26C movement has small, very grainy pictures that are really not useable.

I think at this point I need to absorb all of the input that's been provided and read the instructions/info provided and then make some decisions on how to proceed.

Stay tuned for more updates!

Roger

[ricardopalamino]

Thanks for the link to the nh3 pdf file JDM. This file has very clear diagrams of the required adjustments. The Seiko service instructions I have for my 7S26C movement has small, very grainy pictures that are really not useable.

I think at this point I need to absorb all of the input that's been provided and read the instructions/info provided and then make some decisions on how to proceed.

Stay tuned for more updates!

Roger

Good Plan Roger....

[64americandeluxe]

I have spent a lot of time today reading, researching and viewing videos and tutorials online.  Understanding Seiko's version of the ETACHRON system and its available adjustments has become a lot clearer to me. This has been very interesting research.  

 

I also contacted my local suppliers to see if they have the ETACHRON adjustment tool as it seems like it will be needed.  If you haven't seen one they look like this...

 

John R725: Thanks so much for the link to the ETACHRON info!  For me, the diagrams and animations on this page has provided me with the clearest explanation of how it works and the required adjustments.

 

Cheers & happy halloween!

Roger

[ricardopalamino]

I have seen this tool in another post somewhere . Citizen has a similar tool to remove some of their vintage oscillating weight rotors . A member from another forum had one he had found searching on ebay in Japan , and he told me that they were rare to come by.

 

 

I am planing on making something that will work . I use Ladies make-up brushes to clean watch parts because they are very soft and tend not to scratch , ...they usually have a round plastic handle that I am going to cut flat on one end and file or saw a grove that will fit on the screw part of the rotor . This type of hand made tool may work for you if you can't locate the tool you're looking for .

Good Luck .

[Geo]

Hi Roger, Cousins UK have the Etachron tool in stock.

[64americandeluxe]

Update on the adjustment tool:  None of my local suppliers had the adjustment tool in stock (it seems that this tool is not stocked by many of the suppliers in Canada and the U.S.) but I was able to source one out of the U.S. at a reasonable price.  The company I ordered it from didn't have it on their website, but when I emailed them, lo and behold, they did stock it.  I have ordered it and once it arrives I will be able to make adjustments as needed and see if this resolves my problem.

Roger

Edited November 13, 2015 by 64americandeluxe

[jdm]

Update on the adjustment tool:  None of my local suppliers had the adjustment tool in stock (it seems that this tool is not stocked by many of the suppliers in Canada and the U.S.) but I was able to source one out of the U.S. at a reasonable price.  The company I ordered it from didn't have it on their website, but when I emailed them, lo and behold, they did stock it.  I have ordered it and once it arrives I will be able to make adjustments as needed and see if this resolves my problem.

Roger

 

I think that adjustment of regulator curb pins is an advanced technique mainly needed for adjusting variation between positions. If the movement is simply running fast due to an irregular hairspring that should be corrected using the techniques linked above, or if the damage is permanent, a new balance complete.  

[JimInOz]

This has turned into a very educational thread.

 

I thought I'd add some pics that may clarify the regulator pin adjustment and the reason for not turning in the wrong direction.

 

You may be able to see that while the bottom of the stud has a straight slot, the hairspring guide is angled from each side. So I would start adjustment from the neutral position, adjust the hairspring angle on the other stud and then adjust the clearance to the mid point. 

 

Sounds easy doesn't it, but I think a lot of tweaking will be required to get the correct outcome.

 

And then you can adjust beat error and rate.

 

Good luck with it.

 

Cheers

 

Jim

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 14, 2015 by JimInOz

[64americandeluxe]

Overdue update:

After a two month "break", I am back at the bench.  The regulator adjustment tool I ordered I arrived, so this afternoon I decided to look into my non-concentric hairspring problem.  Here's what I did:

 

1)  Tried to use my new regulator tool to adjust the regulator a tiny bit to see what effect that would have on my hairspring.  To my dismay, the tool, which is meant for an EtaChron regulator, does not fit the Seiko regulator stud.  I assumed that since the Seiko design was based on the EtaChron, that the tool would work on my Seiko.  Here's a picture of the tool I ordered (the end of the tool is tiny and hard to photograph):

2)  I decided to use tweezers to turn the regulator a little.  That very small movement in the regulator seems to have made an improvement in the concentricity of the hairspring.  Here's a before and after:

I realize that the hairspring is neither perfectly concentric, nor regulated at this point, but is it possible I am on the right track?  I think my next step would be to follow the Seiko regulation instructions precisely and see where that takes me.

Any suggestions, opinions, criticisms or praise would be appreciated ;)

Have a great week everyone!

Roger

[jdm]

1)  To my dismay, the tool, which is meant for an EtaChron regulator, does not fit the Seiko regulator stud.  I assumed that since the Seiko design was based on the EtaChron, that the tool would work on my Seiko.

Interesting that no Internet source ever mentioned the difference. Perhaps Seiko wanted to protect themselves from patent litigations as much as possible and choose slightly differently dimensions. The Seiko version has also its own name, but nobody seems to remember which is it.

 

2)  I decided to use tweezers to turn the regulator a little.  That very small movement in the regulator seems to have made an improvement in the concentricity of the hairspring.  Here's a before and after:

Before & After.png

I realize that the hairspring is neither perfectly concentric, nor regulated at this point, but is it possible I am on the right track?  I think my next step would be to follow the Seiko regulation instructions precisely and see where that takes me.

Seems you'are doing well, even if not there yet. I think that acting on the pins  is simply not enough to fix all cases of HS out of shape. The Seiko instructions are not much useful. It is evidently a matter of experience and skills (which I for one do not posses). Others write nonchalantly about "carefully manipulating the HS with a pair of No 5 tweezers", but little is said about how exactly. As one goes to do it in practice, other major issues surface:.

• Even with the balance cock removed, the presence of the balance spokes and rim make it very difficult to grab the spring at the exact point, which in most cases I believe is modifying *very slightly* the  angles of the "dog leg".
• Watch out manipulating the HS directly. As you grab the spring any slight push and pulls transmits directly to the end stud and will put strain on spring entering, causing it to snap (in the screwed stud version), or get lose from the slot (in the Etachron-like system). I know that very well having broken three at least this way, and not fixed one ever. From experience less than 10 attempts are enough to break it, which mean in reality the metal is damaged already after 2 push/pulls with the stud in place. So, the end stud should be removed first, which of course makes things even more laborious and risky, as one wouldn't be able to see the result before putting it back.
• Straight No 5. tweezers are not even that good for the work. For one, the tips are still a bit too thick, and it's impossible to keep them both perfectly vertical and close. Someone suggested in another thread to use No. 5 90 deg. angled tweezers, which of course are quite expensive from Dumont, but are not even available from the prominent material houses.
• Even if you manage to give the spring an acceptable shape by turning (or moving axially, which interestingly is never mentioned, but obviously required sometime) the regulator pin, that is probably not very good, because that would mean the curb pins are touching HS, but we know that in the "neutral" position they are supposed not NOT touch it! My understanding is that adjusting the regulator pin makes sense only after one has a perfectly concentric shaped HS, and is looking for the last touch of adjusting for positional variation - Archer Watches has a blog entry about that. Again - that has never happened to me, I never got to that point.

And then the are probably even more problems... which surely all have been met countless times by  generations of repairers.. but about which strangely one can't find much detail.. except in some good book book perhaps.

Yes, I find the subject extremely intriguing and difficult.