Seiko 5 Gaining - Suggestions?

[JohnR725]

So while rereading the messages looking at the pictures it dawned on me what the problem may very likely be. What if the hairspring was bent at the stud? In this watch it's incredibly easy to do that because this watch uses the Etachron system designed by the manufacturers for easy adjustment in manufacturing. Everything is supposed to stay physically locked in place but what if the stud rotated all by itself? I've seen this on the Chinese watches where they didn't clone the parts exactly right and they were somewhat free-floating. The other problem with the Chinese watches is the glue holding the hairspring in place only can survive a limited number cleanings before it washes away.

 

So to understand what were looking at I've attached a PDF extracted out of the Seiko document explaining Etachron. Also a link to someone adjusting the system. As yours was already adjusted I suspect all you have to do is just rotate the stud back to where it originally was and the hairspring will center itself. The other way to tell if the stud is in the wrong position is to rotate the regulator Pin into its open position and verify the hairspring is in the middle where it is supposed to be.

 

http://www.timekeeperforum.com/forum/threads/adjustment-and-regulation.21105/

seiko etachron.pdf

[ricardopalamino]

I have to say that I'm in awe of the info Presented by the attachments in JohnR725 's post . Having said that It seemed to me , before reading the excellent info in the attachments , looking at the pic of the spring and balance wheel ,[with the tweezers ] , that the outer coil immediately starts to open and get wider from the attachment stud to the regulating stud , and the offset in the spring may be a bit too much pulling the outer coil too close to the second coil .

  Maybe the regulating stud is twisted clockwise a bit too much , or may be a bit too far out in the slit . 

 

My amateur 2 cents worth , but I am looking forward to the outcome and solution to centering the spring .

 

64americandeluxe....I applaud your nerve in fixing this fault yourself instead of just sending it in to Seiko . I think you will have this obstacle cleared in short order.

[64americandeluxe]

So I lifted the balance up off the upper Incabloc jewel and moved it towards the left.  You can see that the coils are not stuck together. JohnR725, I haven't adjusted the regulator or any other part of the hairspring.  What you see is how it came from the factory, unless, or course, something has moved during the first months of usage.  Here are a couple more pics...

I think I need to do some serious head scratching this week before I make my next move.

Thanks to everyone for your thoughts so far!  Hopefully I'll get some sleep tonight and won't be seeing hairsprings all night long :D!

[anilv]

Dear 64,

 

I took the liberty of editing your first pic.

 

 

Look at the yellow arrow, the coils should not be touching.

 

Where the hairspring is blocked by the upper balance arm, there should be another kink, which I marked with a red dot (sorry you have to squint a bit to see it!).

 

By gripping point 'B' as close as possible to the red dot, and applying a bit of upward pressure at point 'A', you should be able to bring the whole balance back into center. Ideally the balance should be dismounted but on these watches its a bit tricky for beginners, when you get the pivot back in its jewel the kink will be visible if you move the balance round a bit.

 

The green arrow is the regulator and the hairspring should pass thru the pins freely. You should not use this to get the spring back in line.

 

All the best!

Edited October 20, 2015 by anilv

[64americandeluxe]

Hi Anilv,

To clarify, the coils you marked with the yellow arrow are only touching now because the balance is out of its pivot.  When the balance is back in its pivot, those coils marked with the yellow arrow do not touch.  Does your recommendation hold true?  I just wanted to make sure you understood what I had done with the balance when I took the last picture.

 

PS:  Thanks for taking the time to add visual aids to problem area and the corrections needed!

Roger

[anilv]

Hi Roger,

 

Yes, all the coils are concentric and the only way to get the balance + coils centered would be to bend it at the kink.

 

However lets wait until the others chime in. What is bugging me is if how it could have gotten this way ...

 

Anil

[Geo]

However lets wait until the others chime in. What is bugging me is if how it could have gotten this way ...

 

Me too Anil, how can it be OK one minute and not the next without sustaining some mechanical trauma? Springs do not bend of their own accord.

[clockboy]

Looking at the pic that Anilv edited it looks like the kink @ A & B is the area to adjust. But to do this job correctly the spring must be removed from the balance & centred as per vids on the net. This is one of the easier adjustments to a hairspring providing the correct procedure is taken. 

[Gary]

Anxiously awaiting the results on this chapter!

[SeikoWatch]

or just removing the hairspring and it will replace itself when you will replace it in place..

[64americandeluxe]

Update #4:  I just removed the balance assembly from the balance cock to see how the hairspring behaves out of the balance cock.  Here are the results:

Again, here is what a new, replacement balance assembly looks like:

Based on my limited experience and input from all of you, I believe that the hairspring needs to be adjusted here, (as anilv suggested) as indicated by the arrow:

 

Am I correct, or is there another issue I have overlooked?

Thanks everyone!

Roger

[Geo]

That's certainly the area needing major attention. I'd still like to know how it got like that?

[64americandeluxe]

That's certainly the area needing major attention. I'd still like to know how it got like that?

[64americandeluxe]

Geo: i agree completely.

[JohnR725]

That's certainly the area needing major attention. I'd still like to know how it got like that?

 

So it looks like quite a few of us have the same question which is how does a hairspring get bent all by itself which is impossible.

 

Then it may just be the way the hairspring is sitting but it appears to be there is another bend? The second coil it on one side is closer and on the opposite side there farther apart which would indicate normally a bend in between. It's plainly visible in the one picture slightly less visible on the other perhaps it's an optical illusion?

 

Then someone else previously mentioned videos here's the links to them. You going to have a minor problem in that normally remove the hairspring from the balance and this hairspring isn't designed for that. Even though balance complete iis readily available and relatively cheap I would practice on a scrap hairspring first just to get a feel for bending hairsprings.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EYk787sjAM

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idO5elKgFMA

[64americandeluxe]

So it looks like quite a few of us have the same question which is how does a hairspring get bent all by itself which is impossible.

 

Then it may just be the way the hairspring is sitting but it appears to be there is another bend? The second coil it on one side is closer and on the opposite side there farther apart which would indicate normally a bend in between. It's plainly visible in the one picture slightly less visible on the other perhaps it's an optical illusion?

 

Then someone else previously mentioned videos here's the links to them. You going to have a minor problem in that normally remove the hairspring from the balance and this hairspring isn't designed for that. Even though balance complete iis readily available and relatively cheap I would practice on a scrap hairspring first just to get a feel for bending hairsprings.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EYk787sjAM

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idO5elKgFMA

Hi JohnR725,

Are you referring to the bottom pic with the orange arrow?  If so, it may be the image was slightly distorted when I shrunk it down.  The top 2 pics are untouched. 

[JohnR725]

I put some red marks in the attached image so you can see were the problem may or may not be. 

[64americandeluxe]

Update #5:

I corrected the hairspring as best I could (this is the first time I have manipulated a hairspring).  I know it could be improved even further, but I also know I can make things a whole lot worse, so I thought it best to "leave well-enough alone".  Here is the result:

 

When I installed the balance wheel back onto the movement and installed the stud into the stud support things look much improved:

 

 

When I install the hairspring into the regulator slot, well, things go very wrong.  The hairspring now moves to the left so it isn't even visible on the right side (the original problem is now magnified).

 

Is it possible I need to rotate the regulator? Alternately, I can organize an intervention or, if needed, an exorcism :D .

Thoughts? Suggestions? Anyone care for a mint?

Roger

[ricardopalamino]

I don't have the answer , but I applaud your efforts to this point ....don't give up yet . Can you take the balance and cock out of the watch and turn it over so we can see how the hairspring looks from the other side ? .....Thanks

[clockboy]

Update #5:

I corrected the hairspring as best I could (this is the first time I have manipulated a hairspring).  I know it could be improved even further, but I also know I can make things a whole lot worse, so I thought it best to "leave well-enough alone".  Here is the result:

Picture5.jpg

 

When I installed the balance wheel back onto the movement and installed the stud into the stud support things look much improved:

 

Picture2.jpg

 

When I install the hairspring into the regulator slot, well, things go very wrong.  The hairspring now moves to the left so it isn't even visible on the right side (the original problem is now magnified).

 

Picture3.jpg

Is it possible I need to rotate the regulator? Alternately, I can organize an intervention or, if needed, an exorcism :D .

Thoughts? Suggestions? Anyone care for a mint?

Roger

The hairspring should look good when positioned on top with the centre stud centred with the final curve in the correct position for the regulator.  

I had this once that got me for a while. I found that the hairspring was actually getting snagged in the regulator so when the regulator was moved it grabbed hold of the hairspring & moved it out of position. Might be worth a check.

[Geo]

I agree with both of the above comments. With the cock upside down check the full range of movement to see where the issue is. Did you manipulate the spring on or off the balance? It's better done off to allow you to ensure everything is concentric.

[anilv]

Bravo....

 

Try the to rotate the regulator first... basically there are two legs and these need to be in such a way that it allows the hairspring to pass thru.

 

Anil

[64americandeluxe]

I agree with both of the above comments. With the cock upside down check the full range of movement to see where the issue is. Did you manipulate the spring on or off the balance? It's better done off to allow you to ensure everything is concentric.

I ran out of time last night so I didn't remove the balance cock to look at it again. I will do this next. I didn't remove the hairspring from the balance when I adjusted the hairspring for fear of damaging it.

Cheers guys!

Roger

[SeikoWatch]

Thank you John for the 2 videos. very interesting how to replace the hair spring .I already tried with a pair of twizers but i was not sure if it was a correct way to do. now i know ;)...

[JohnR725]

Thank you John for the 2 videos. very interesting how to replace the hair spring .I already tried with a pair of twizers but i was not sure if it was a correct way to do. now i know ;)...

Nice that someone watched the videos. So in particular to refresh everyone's memory this video approximately 47 seconds he talks about the importance of the outer curvature corresponding to the rotation of the regulator pins. So in particular looking at your past picture of the new balance wheel it looks like the outer curve is closer in that you currently have it?

 

.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EYk787sjAM

 

Then image attached as a reminder this is the Etachron system lots of things to adjust both good and bad. So initially rotate the regulator until the pins are maximum open. Then you rotate the stud To get the hairspring where it's supposed to be between the regulator pins. Then verify in several locations that the curvature is correct and you can then rotate the regulator to close the pins. But make sure you can still move the regulator I'm not sure how much rotation it would take but I suspect if you get carried away you can rotate the regulator to the point of bending the hairspring.