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Zodiac 72B And The Wonky Balance


rahible

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First, thank you all for your help.  I’ve been reading several posts that have helped me since I first joined several weeks ago.  I’ve been very fortunately the last year or so learning watch repair as a hobby.  It’s been very rewarding and fun (as all of you know :P)

 

A few months ago, I drunk bid, and won, this Zodiac Seawolf on eBay.  It was supposedly running and then stopping after a short while (which was true).  However, during disassembly I found it was missing the case tabs, hacking/stop lever, and most of the date mechanism parts.  I was able to get it appart, cleaned, and luckily with a donor Aerospace GMT for the date parts, was able to get it back together and running.

 

I put the balance in and the hairspring adjusted, I put the automatic winding mechanism on and the watch went completely out of adjustment.   After removing the auto winding mechanism, I noticed that the hairspring was touching itself.  So I removed the balance, made sure the hairspring was back in position, reinstalled it adjusted it, and after putting the auto parts back on it was running ok.  Then I cased it, and again it went completely out of adjustment. 

 

I’ve been through this exercise several times now, and even tried with the balance from the Aerospace GMT donor I have with the same results.  The last time, I tried to check that the rotor wasn’t hitting the balance, and it doesn’t appear that it is (at least I can’t see where it would be).  I’ve demagnitized the movement and case several times too. 

 

I’m still missing the stop lever and one of the case tabs, but I wouldn’t think either of those would cause this kind of havoic on the balance. 

 

Does anyone have any guidance on what to look for which might be causing my balance(s) to go wonky? 

 

Below are pics.

 

Original balance in:

 

21580369205_1360b823f8_c.jpg

 

Everything looks ok and adjusted (not great but ok):

 

21393426909_f78e0989d7_c.jpg

 

Auto on:

 

21589146031_45296337e9_c.jpg

 

Everything still looks ok:

 

21589122731_82afac2035_c.jpg

 

Just about to case it and then decided to check one more time and hairspring look ok from what I can see.

 

20957541204_4494d3a49b_c.jpg

 

WOW Look at that shotgun scatter pattern:

 

20957532674_bea024a860_c.jpg

 

And it’s wonky again :pulling-hair-out:

 

21392250330_1a09fff035_c.jpg

 

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Thanks again for the suggestions.

I did some demagnetizing tonight, and made sure I got everything; tools, case, etc.

I tried again, and when I pulled the crown, the movement shuffled pretty violently in the case. I expected some shuffling since I'm missing one of the case tabs, but this was more than I had previously noticed. The hairspring was all distorted again. It's obvious now that something is hitting the hairspring.

So I moved the one case tab that I have, to the area closest to the balance. I made a run at it again. Everything looked good (a little loose but not near as bad). I gently shook the case, pushed and pulled the crown, with no issues. So I closed it up and had the same problem. Distorted hairspring.

I think that when there is any shock to the movement, it moves in the case causing the hairspring to hit the automatic device bridge. I'm going to set it aside until I can get some proper case tabs so it's secure.

Does it sound plausible that a loose movement in the case could cause this? From a novice point of view, I wouldn't have thought so before reading your suggestions.

I'll follow up after I get the parts and have another chance to work on it.

Thanks again!

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Interesting readings on the scatter pattern, if you've demagged it as Geo suggested have you "one dipped" it also?.

I don't know this particular movement, but it may also be possible that the autowind bridge has a fault and is holding the mainspring back, it may be that your just not locating the bridge correctly with its associated gearing??.

Would be interesting to see a pic of the Balance off the movement still attached to the cock and with the cock inverted

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What type of demagnetiser and technique are you using?

 

I have a K&D and pulled the part out of the center, without touching the sides, while holding the button for 5 seconds.  I also have a Grobet and set the part on it and "zap" it several times.  I've used both for this watch and my parts.  I've always used the Grobet with success, but thought maybe it quit working correctly, so I borrowed the K&D to test this out.  

 

Interesting readings on the scatter pattern, if you've demagged it as Geo suggested have you "one dipped" it also?.

I don't know this particular movement, but it may also be possible that the autowind bridge has a fault and is holding the mainspring back, it may be that your just not locating the bridge correctly with its associated gearing??.

Would be interesting to see a pic of the Balance off the movement still attached to the cock and with the cock inverted

 

I cleaned the balance while attached to the main plate, but did not one dip it too.  I'll try that as well.  

 

When I have the bridge and the rotor attached, I can see that it winds the mainspring when I spin the rotor (in both directions).  I used that as a test that I have everything aligned correctly with the autowind mechanism.  Is there something else I should be look for?

 

When inverted, the hairspring "appears to me" to be evenly coiled, but I'll get a pic posted when I get a chance, so that others can verify.

 

Thanks again for the suggestions.

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From your reply I'd guess at oil on the HS, you seem to have covered everything else.

 

I just zoomed in to the photos I took (the last one where it's wonky), and I noticed that there is debris on the hairspring.  I hadn't noticed it before, as I had been thinking of other issues (clearance, magnetism, etc).  Forest through the trees, or a mix of problems.  This makes me want to leave work right now and go clean my balance and try again.

 

Thank you again!

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So a bit of good news. One dip'd the balance, re-oiled the jewel got it back together and everything was right on track and looking better.

Then whack, while adjusting the balance my screw driver slipped (well I slipped, can't blame the screw driver for that one) and there is now a hairspring deformity problem! Luckily, a gracious, thoughtful, and ever so kind watch maker, posted a how to vid on fixing such an issue. However, that'll have to wait for another day...not sure when...I'll have to sit on this one a while.

Thanks for the direction, it appears to be spot on. This has definitely been the most challenging watch (about mt 10th), that I've serviced.

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I was able to spend Friday night using the techniques that Mark posted on YouTube to fix the bent and twisted hairpspring.  I was really neverous and intimidated about trying it.  However, with a lot of patience and the excellent detailed explainations in the youtube vids, I was able to do so.  I REALLY regreat taking before and after hairspring pics.  I'm really proud that I was able to take a twisted hairspring and work it back into usefulness.

 

I was able to get it back together just now AND no wonkiness AND it's keeping time (for the past 40 min at least).  I was able to regulate it pretty close to zero at dial down.  In the case, it's right around there both dial down and dial up. 

 

Hairspring back in!

 

21733012736_14fcd2ac92_k.jpg

 

Regulated!

 

21733005166_75fa75190e_k.jpg

 

Stays, even after the auto mechanism is in place.

 

21768501211_f96c09d590_k.jpg

 

Cased

 

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It was showing about +5 sec after casing and .4 ms in beat error after casing...but after 5 or 10 min was back to before casing.

 

21571609550_1d6a3ee1f0_k.jpg

 

Upclose...as you can see it's lived a rough life, but I'm hoping to take a stab at cleaning and reluming the hands.

 

21732968956_c4855237df_k.jpg

 

And on the wrist!

 

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THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR ALL OF THE ADVICE!! 

 

In retro spec, I think it was a mix of magnetism and sloppiness that got oil on the hairspring.  Using a different demagnitizer, and one dipping the balance seemed to resolve things.

 

I'm going to wear it the next few days to make sure the date changes, keeps a wind, and of course keeps time.

 

 

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