Ultrasonic Cleaners

[HectorLooi]

2 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

Related topic...those of you who use amoniated L&R cleaner...what do you do with the spent fluids?  Currently I am kicking the can down the road--storing in containers.

Good question. Nobody knows. The manufacturers usually say something to the effect of "dispose according to the environmental laws in your country".

My friend, who is a fellow watch repair hobbyist and a marine biologist, is dead against pouring it down the drain. He contacted licensed waste disposal contractors and they just laughed when they learn of the quantities involved. He was in a real dilemma. 

We now use water free ammoiniated fluids. We dispose spent fluids by putting in the sun and letting it evaporate. 

I'm not sure if it the most environmentally friendly way. Anyone with a better solution to this problem?

Edited April 6, 2022 by HectorLooi
Incomplete sentence

[Graziano]

5 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

I'm not sure if it the most environmentally friendly way. Anyone with a better solution to this problem?

Hi there ,from the National Library of Medicine.

Solutions of ammonia can be highly diluted with water, or alternatively, diluted with water and neutralized with HCl and then routed to the sewer system. The amount released to the receiving stream should not exceed the established limits for ammonia, the small amounts used by watch hobbyist I would say safely falls into this category, as mentioned before when you contact local authority you just get laughed at .However with heavily diluted or neutralized you are pretty safe . So is the environment. Some countries allow diluted acids and bases down the drain with a pH of between 5.5 and 10.5

Graziano

Edited April 6, 2022 by Graziano

[Legarm]

I use the L&R solution and pour used liquid back in to a used container, then take it to the local waste collection site. There is a section for oils and contaminated liquids, I was informed to leave it there.

[LittleWatchShop]

9 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

letting it evaporate.

I have used this method for other solvents

[LittleWatchShop]

I did a little googling on ammonia cleaning products.  Highly diluted, it is OK to send them down the sink except if you are on a septic system (which I am).  Alternatively, you can mix with equal parts of sand, cat litter, and baking soda...after mixing with cleaner, put in a bag and send out with the rest of the garbage.

How this applies to L&R, I do not know because there is more than ammonia in the L&R cleaner.

By itself, ammonia is not a particularly nasty substance.

The other stuff (extra fine L&R):
Mineral Spirits 65% (CAS-8052-41-3) low toxicity generally
Solvent Naphtha Light Aliphatic 20% (CAS-64742-89-8)  This is naphtha from my research
Oleic acid 10% (CAS-112-80-1) seems relatively tame
Isopropanolamine 2% (CAS-78-96-6) dont get it on your lips, e.g.
Propoxyethanol 2% (CAS-2807-30-9) seems relatively tame
Ammonium Hydroxide  1% (CAS-1336-21-6) there's the ammonia

Decide for yourself.  I say, most of this stuff evaporates easily...so let the sun do its work, IMHO.

 

Edited April 6, 2022 by LittleWatchShop

[Neverenoughwatches]

I was wondering what to do with cleaners after use. I use the waterless L n R ammoniated in an open lidded sonic cleaner and had to install a small extractor for obvious reasons. Also use isopropyl and naptha. I tend to filter out any contaminants recycle and then reuse my cleaners a few times. Not sure if this is a good idea, I would assume it will just reduce their cleaning abilities and as such do no real harm. Less trips to the recycle center, less pollution I suppose.

[HectorLooi]

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/diamond-gemstone-washing-cup

Instead of filling the whole tank with ammoiniated cleaner and filling the room with ammonia everytime the power is turned on, sealed glass jars could be used. It saves on the amount of cleaning fluids used and reduces the amount lost to evaporation.

I too filter my solutions to extend the life as the prices of the solutions are 4X of those in UK. I use a vacuum filtration setup to speed up the process and reduce evaporation. 

[berlintime]

I just wanted to see and ask if anyone has had any experiences with Elma cleaning fluids? Particularly elma WF pro? Im currently still doing everything manually but would like to invest in a ultrasonic cleaning rig. Im not sure if i can drop the pallet fork or the complete balance ( without dissasembling the shock/ jewel systems) into the fluids. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 4/5/2022 at 11:28 PM, Skyfiller said:

Only started in pocket watches at the beginning of the year but having done literally days of research I now use ultrasonic for everything. Fill the bath with water and put L&R UF Watch Cleaner or L&R Ultrasonic Watch Rinse in glass jars. I've not had any problems and even put the foil dial washers in. 

Just because, off to see if the glass jars make a difference?

Two pieces of Al foil, one in the water bath and one in a glass jar for 300 seconds

Think that clearly shows that the glass jars do affect the ultrasonics

Try using a plastic tub instead of a glass the sonic vibrations penetrate the plastic tub much easier. Obviously careful on your choice of plastic used as the solvent will definitely affect it. I've been using a plastic dog food tub for the last three months and a sandwich container. They are becoming a bit distorted now. Time to change to something less reactive. The waves are barely different  from the cleaner tank to the tub. Hope this helps. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 4/10/2022 at 1:58 PM, berlintime said:

I just wanted to see and ask if anyone has had any experiences with Elma cleaning fluids? Particularly elma WF pro? Im currently still doing everything manually but would like to invest in a ultrasonic cleaning rig. Im not sure if i can drop the pallet fork or the complete balance ( without dissasembling the shock/ jewel systems) into the fluids. 

I use elma wf Pro. To be honest I'm not that impressed. If I don't dry it quick enough it leaves an annoying film that I have to spend time removing. U really should use a rinse as well. I've started to use a solvent i use at work instead which is OK. My personal method is to use ultra sonic for everything except the balance and the pallet fork. I prefer to do these by hand. For that I use lighter fluid (naptha) which is reasonably  cheap, 9 quid for a litre. It seems to have no affect on the shellac.  Don't use isopropyl or meths on anything that has shellac on it , it dissolves it pretty  quickly. The cleaner was a punt at around 50 quid, thought it a bit of a risk at that price but its not bad. Two settings and a heater. One setting is a bit aggressive, I did a pretty battered old case in just a detergent solution, when I took it out the stronger frequency had left some pit marks in it. Probably a case of alreadied ( I make up words) fatigued metal being dislodged.

[Neverenoughwatches]

15 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Try using a plastic tub instead of a glass the sonic vibrations penetrate the plastic tub much easier. Obviously careful on your choice of plastic used as the solvent will definitely affect it. I've been using a plastic dog food tub for the last three months and a sandwich container. They are becoming a bit distorted now. Time to change to something less reactive. The waves are barely different  from the cleaner tank to the tub. Hope this helps. 

Oh and as far as the fumes go, you will know that the Elma Pro is potent. I had a sniff from the can when mine arrived, misjudged  my distance from it, it almost blew my bloody head off. So wait till you stick it in an open tub and put heated sonic waves through it. Not fun really not fun, unless youre slash from Guns  and Roses. Get an extractor please. You have been warned ☠

[Tiny]

So the elma pro for ultrasonic needs the rinse liquid as well to remove the residue but does the rinse agent leave any  residue if left to dry in say the sun {no heat|} I'm thinking of buying Elma cleaning solutions for the sonic cleaner ?

 

i was hoping to just buy the cleaner and use isopropanol to rinse

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, Tiny said:

So the elma pro for ultrasonic needs the rinse liquid as well to remove the residue but does the rinse agent leave any  residue if left to dry in say the sun {no heat|} I'm thinking of buying Elma cleaning solutions for the sonic cleaner ?

 

i was hoping to just buy the cleaner and use isopropanol to rinse

I imagine that the rinse is required  regardless of what machine is used, a lot of learning came from trial and error as I had no one to talk to and i wasn't that keen on joining a forum tbh. Initially I tried to get away with just the elma Pro, but look at the different ones. I tried to choose the best one to give me an adequate result with just one solution. It often left a film that required a rinse tbf. So I tried a solvent that I use for cleaning pvc products, I could get loads cheap that is my rinse. Not ideal but I found it works better that the elma Pro alone. The more rinses the better really as the cleaner the parts are the more you are starting with a blank canvas so to speak. I would say the best beginners idea would be to go back to basics that were used years ago that worked then. This may or may not be suited to modern watches. Like I've stated before very little I repair  is less than 50 years old. When I've used all the elma I will probably  go to using naptha exclusively as it's a bit cheaper than the elma plus I know it works. And have a few solutions of that to rinse with. I have some isopropyl but not tried that, it's dearer than naptha, I also have some meths as well to try. I like to experiment to learn. Meths is denatured pure alcohol coloured and given a wierd smell for obvious reasons. Brake cleaner has also been used by some. I do have some in a spray if I want a quick clean of something.  Also a tin of contact cleaner that is naptha for a quick clean of balance and pallets.  I've not noticed any affect on the shellac but I'm pretty quick with it. Perfectly  happy for anyone  to add or correct anything I won't be at all offended.

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 4/6/2022 at 4:14 PM, LittleWatchShop said:

I did a little googling on ammonia cleaning products.  Highly diluted, it is OK to send them down the sink except if you are on a septic system (which I am).  Alternatively, you can mix with equal parts of sand, cat litter, and baking soda...after mixing with cleaner, put in a bag and send out with the rest of the garbage.

How this applies to L&R, I do not know because there is more than ammonia in the L&R cleaner.

By itself, ammonia is not a particularly nasty substance.

The other stuff (extra fine L&R):
Mineral Spirits 65% (CAS-8052-41-3) low toxicity generally
Solvent Naphtha Light Aliphatic 20% (CAS-64742-89-8)  This is naphtha from my research
Oleic acid 10% (CAS-112-80-1) seems relatively tame
Isopropanolamine 2% (CAS-78-96-6) dont get it on your lips, e.g.
Propoxyethanol 2% (CAS-2807-30-9) seems relatively tame
Ammonium Hydroxide  1% (CAS-1336-21-6) there's the ammonia

Decide for yourself.  I say, most of this stuff evaporates easily...so let the sun do its work, IMHO.

 

So sand cat litter and baking soda hmm sounds delish.  Which flour do you use, I prefer sour dough it works better with the baking soda than it does with yeast. How long do you let it rise for and how many proofs do you give it ? I generally  find that two is enough. When whack the oven up high bake on that for half an hour, reduce heat to finish bake. Tap the bottom, it should sound hollow if it is you're ready to go when it's cool. Presto. 

[Tiny]

That is a really good reply neverenoughwatches I will use lighter fuel then and rinse with Isopropyl.

I do know, that I don't want to use water based cleaners.

 

[jdm]

1 minute ago, Tiny said:

I will use lighter fuel then and rinse with Isopropyl.

Be aware, lighter fluid it's not an horological products, it's not recommended by any school or maker, it contains additives as it's made to burn not to clean. It's also a lot more expensive per quantity than petroleum ether.

[Tiny]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I imagine that the rinse is required  regardless of what machine is used, a lot of learning came from trial and error as I had no one to talk to and i wasn't that keen on joining a forum tbh. Initially I tried to get away with just the elma Pro, but look at the different ones. I tried to choose the best one to give me an adequate result with just one solution. It often left a film that required a rinse tbf. So I tried a solvent that I use for cleaning pvc products, I could get loads cheap that is my rinse. Not ideal but I found it works better that the elma Pro alone. The more rinses the better really as the cleaner the parts are the more you are starting with a blank canvas so to speak. I would say the best beginners idea would be to go back to basics that were used years ago that worked then. This may or may not be suited to modern watches. Like I've stated before very little I repair  is less than 50 years old. When I've used all the elma I will probably  go to using naptha exclusively as it's a bit cheaper than the elma plus I know it works. And have a few solutions of that to rinse with. I have some isopropyl but not tried that, it's dearer than naptha, I also have some meths as well to try. I like to experiment to learn. Meths is denatured pure alcohol coloured and given a wierd smell for obvious reasons. Brake cleaner has also been used by some. I do have some in a spray if I want a quick clean of something.  Also a tin of contact cleaner that is naptha for a quick clean of balance and pallets.  I've not noticed any affect on the shellac but I'm pretty quick with it. Perfectly  happy for anyone  to add or correct anything I won't be at all offended.

Can i ask when you say Naptha do you mean the soap or is it a form of lighter fuel ?? I have to ask because I'm confused because when I search with naptha it comes up with soap and naphtha is lighter fluid just checking

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

18 minutes ago, Tiny said:

Can i ask when you say Naptha do you mean the soap or is it a form of lighter fuel ?? I have to ask because I'm confused because when I search with naptha it comes up with soap and naphtha is lighter fluid just checking

 

No problem T. I had the same feelings about it myself and had to work it out. Yes naptha is a soap and also used in dry cleaning  No you cannot use it in that form but it is related. Naptha is also known as benzine or benzene usually not available in that name. Searches may suggest it as petrol but it is petroleum based. Buy it as lighter fuel, even this can be difficult  to get sometimes. It will come in 100ml cans sometimes 125ml. I manage to get it at 89 pence a can, so just under 9 quid a can. Hope this helps

[Neverenoughwatches]

Just now, Neverenoughwatches said:

No problem T. I had the same feelings about it myself and had to work it out. Yes naptha is a soap and also used in dry cleaning  No you cannot use it in that form but it is related. Naptha is also known as benzine or benzene usually not available in that name. Searches may suggest it as petrol but it is petroleum based. Buy it as lighter fuel, even this can be difficult  to get sometimes. It will come in 100ml cans sometimes 125ml. I manage to get it at 89 pence a can, so just under 9 quid a can. Hope this helps

Sorry 9 quid per litre 

[jdm]

20 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Naptha is also known as benzine or benzene usually not available in that name

Not benzene,  that is a common mistake, which I have explained so many times. Read:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum_ether

Benzine" redirects here. Not to be confused with Benzene.

You can buy it on Ebay

 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

4 minutes ago, jdm said:

Not benzene,  that is a common mistake, which I have explained so many times. Read:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum_ether

Benzine" redirects here. Not to be confused with Benzene.

You can buy it on Ebay

 

 

No it is not a horological product but it has been used for decades by enthusiasts and watchmakers alike and I would have thought for a beginner with a limiting budget needing to make every penny count, it would be a good place to start. And as a side note it is also suggested for beginners by Kalle of chronoglide  watchschool in the Netherlands. Who has a good youtube following, a wealth of knowledge,  an amazing watchmakers workshop capable of making all watch parts, has numerous students and employees and has recently  begun to exhibit his own watches and respects other peoples ideas and often states see what works for you. With those sort of credentials I would personally put my faith in this man. Check him out T.

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, Tiny said:

That is a really good reply neverenoughwatches I will use lighter fuel then and rinse with Isopropyl.

I do know, that I don't want to use water based cleaners.

 

I personally wouldn't want to use anything waterbased  either

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

No it is not a horological product but it has been used for decades by enthusiasts and watchmakers alike and I would have thought for a beginner with a limiting budget needing to make every penny count, it would be a good place to start. And as a side note it is also suggested for beginners by Kalle of chronoglide  watchschool in the Netherlands. Who has a good youtube following, a wealth of knowledge,  an amazing watchmakers workshop capable of making all watch parts, has numerous students and employees and has recently  begun to exhibit his own watches and respects other peoples ideas and often states see what works for you. With those sort of credentials I would personally put my faith in this man. Check him out T.

Try it if you don't like it and it's not working for you then try something else. I find having the right balance of applying what i know in a logical manner, a good dose of research and help and the fun of experimentation so I can have my own ideas as well makes me happy. That's all I'm really bothered about and honestly not interested if that's frowned upon because its my baby.

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 4/10/2022 at 1:48 AM, HectorLooi said:

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/diamond-gemstone-washing-cup

Instead of filling the whole tank with ammoiniated cleaner and filling the room with ammonia everytime the power is turned on, sealed glass jars could be used. It saves on the amount of cleaning fluids used and reduces the amount lost to evaporation.

I too filter my solutions to extend the life as the prices of the solutions are 4X of those in UK. I use a vacuum filtration setup to speed up the process and reduce evaporation. 

Sorry I didn't specify but posted elsewhere. I put a plastic tub in the sonic cleaner instead of glass. The vibrations penetrate much better. The reason that it is open lidded is because I clip the tub to the side of the cleaner so that the tub is suspended in the water. The vibrations in the tub are then as powerful as in the tank itself. The lid can't go on the tub while it has the clips on . When I've finished then the tub is then sealed back up. Phew . My bad sorry I didn't fully explain myself. Which is another reason why my missus gets annoyed with me.

[GregG]

I am experimenting with cleaning fluids on some spare movements that I have lying around, and I ran into some anomalies that I'm hoping someone here could explain.

I have been using water and powdered dish washing detergent mixed in.  I'm generally getting very good results for what is probably the cheapest possible option.  But this most recent movement I tried was strange.  All the parts were separated into baskets, and the balance+bridge was screwed into the main plate to secure it.

Everything came out spotless except for the balance.  The cone on the balance staff just above the pivot got rusty/dirty, as did the pin securing the hairspring to the bridge, and most of the top of the bridge.  I rinsed in isopropyl alcohol, although, the rusting started while they were in the bath, which was only about 35C.  I noticed that there was some grit or grime that was coalescing around the screw head, which mostly washed away after I drained it.

Anyone know what's going on?