Ultrasonic Cleaners

[Nucejoe]

  I put the the parts and cleaning solutions in a plastic bottle in ultrasonic so no such worry, in fact enjoy watching the gears spin at high speed in the solution.  

[GregG]

I think I found a good alternative to a watch cleaning machine.  I bought a magnetic stirring machine meant for lab use.  You have a little magnetic "pill" that spins and stirs the fluid.

My rationale: watch cleaning machines keep the fluid steady and rotate the parts.  Theoretically, it should be the same if I keep the parts steady and rotate the fluid.  There are two downsides I can see to this:

1) You have the potential to magnetize the movement.  But if you elevate the parts off of the plate, hopefully this will diminish any magnetization.  Though if you have a demagnetizer, this shouldn't matter.

2) The professional machines sometimes will spin in both directions.  They will ramp up in one direction, stop, and ramp up in the other direction.  Presumably agitating the fluid help remove stuck on grime.  Magnetic stirrers only operate in one direction.

Edited May 4, 2022 by GregG

[TimpanogosSlim]

12 hours ago, GregG said:

I think I found a good alternative to a watch cleaning machine.  I bought a magnetic stirring machine meant for lab use.  You have a little magnetic "pill" that spins and stirs the fluid.

My rationale: watch cleaning machines keep the fluid steady and rotate the parts.  Theoretically, it should be the same if I keep the parts steady and rotate the fluid.  There are two downsides I can see to this:

1) You have the potential to magnetize the movement.  But if you elevate the parts off of the plate, hopefully this will diminish any magnetization.  Though if you have a demagnetizer, this shouldn't matter.

2) The professional machines sometimes will spin in both directions.  They will ramp up in one direction, stop, and ramp up in the other direction.  Presumably agitating the fluid help remove stuck on grime.  Magnetic stirrers only operate in one direction.

I have both a diy stir plate made of an old 120mm fan from a piece of server equipment, some magnets, and a pwm speed controller, and a really slick solid state stir plate that pulses electromagnets in sequence and is ip65 waterproof and rated for use around explosives. 

I made the DIY one during my beer brewing days because sometimes you want to use a yeast that is only available as a live sample in water and it turns out that the live yeast packs have a fraction of the viable cells that a packet of dry yeast has. So It is often advantageous to breed more yeast for a couple days before you brew. Like say in a 3L erlenmeyer flask with 2L of water, some malt extract, and some packaged "yeast nutrient" or a chunk of carrot that has been pureed and maybe sterilized. 

My DIY unit has a beefy motor and strong magnets and at full speed with a big magnet it can pull a vortex 20mm wide all the way to the bottom of that 3L flask. 

The high tech unit struggles with more than 400ml of liquid which is in fact noted on the sticker on the bottom. 

They're good for mixing or circulating a liquid. A lot of them are heat-and-stir units and sometimes you can't turn off the heat, i think. 

The failure mode is typically when the magnet kicks out from the center and just vibrates at the outer edge of your container. 

If the container is domed at the bottom, as most glass jars are, you may have trouble getting it started and keeping it from kicking out. At least, I do. Flat-bottomed containers, like labware, work best. 

You'll have to find some way to suspend your parts basket without interfering with water flow at the bottom. Maybe a tea strainer with a lip that is wider than the mouth of the jar? 

You'll probably have to run it at a low speed because otherwise all the fluid wants to be at the outer walls of the container. Maybe? Experiment with it? 

Google "diy stir plate" if you want to have a try at building your own. You can probably use a 12v led dimmer that is a knob on a bump in a power cord as the speed control. For 120mm fans, there is a clip-on 'air filter' that can be easily modified to provide a deck for the container and clearance for the magnets stuck to your fan just by cutting the inner grille out and taking out the foam sheet. 

Another option is the stirrers that you clamp a container into, and then a motor swings the container around? 

[Kalanag]

I personally won‘t feel fine with any magnetic action near my watch parts.

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 5/3/2022 at 12:11 AM, Nucejoe said:

  I put the the parts and cleaning solutions in a plastic bottle in ultrasonic so no such worry, in fact enjoy watching the gears spin at high speed in the solution.  

I found using a plastic container much better than a glass jar. The vibrations penetrate thin wall plastic far easier than the higher density of glass. And the added risk of the non forgiving hardness of glass on pivots must surely contribute to occasional damage. 

Edited May 5, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[GregG]

8 hours ago, TimpanogosSlim said:

I have both a diy stir plate made of an old 120mm fan from a piece of server equipment, some magnets, and a pwm speed controller, and a really slick solid state stir plate that pulses electromagnets in sequence and is ip65 waterproof and rated for use around explosives. 

I made the DIY one during my beer brewing days because sometimes you want to use a yeast that is only available as a live sample in water and it turns out that the live yeast packs have a fraction of the viable cells that a packet of dry yeast has. So It is often advantageous to breed more yeast for a couple days before you brew. Like say in a 3L erlenmeyer flask with 2L of water, some malt extract, and some packaged "yeast nutrient" or a chunk of carrot that has been pureed and maybe sterilized. 

My DIY unit has a beefy motor and strong magnets and at full speed with a big magnet it can pull a vortex 20mm wide all the way to the bottom of that 3L flask. 

The high tech unit struggles with more than 400ml of liquid which is in fact noted on the sticker on the bottom. 

They're good for mixing or circulating a liquid. A lot of them are heat-and-stir units and sometimes you can't turn off the heat, i think. 

The failure mode is typically when the magnet kicks out from the center and just vibrates at the outer edge of your container. 

If the container is domed at the bottom, as most glass jars are, you may have trouble getting it started and keeping it from kicking out. At least, I do. Flat-bottomed containers, like labware, work best. 

You'll have to find some way to suspend your parts basket without interfering with water flow at the bottom. Maybe a tea strainer with a lip that is wider than the mouth of the jar? 

You'll probably have to run it at a low speed because otherwise all the fluid wants to be at the outer walls of the container. Maybe? Experiment with it? 

Google "diy stir plate" if you want to have a try at building your own. You can probably use a 12v led dimmer that is a knob on a bump in a power cord as the speed control. For 120mm fans, there is a clip-on 'air filter' that can be easily modified to provide a deck for the container and clearance for the magnets stuck to your fan just by cutting the inner grille out and taking out the foam sheet. 

Another option is the stirrers that you clamp a container into, and then a motor swings the container around? 

I tested it out yesterday using a mason jar which has a very slight doming at the bottom and the magnet had no problem spinning up dead center.  The speed is hard to nail down though.  Speed #4 and the thing is barely spinning, speed #5 and the thing is flying.  And starting low and spinning up to speed 4 nets you different results than starting high and spinning down to speed 4.  I'll have to experiment.  But as for keeping the parts suspended, if you put the stir bar inside its own tray, and then stack the other trays on top of it, I don't see why that wouldn't work.

[HectorLooi]

6 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I found using a plastic container much better than a glass jar. The vibrations penetrate thin wall plastic far easier than the higher density of glass.

I think this statement needs to be verified.

I remember the manufacturers of ultrasonic cleaners telling us that when cleaning plastic instruments, the time has to be doubled as plastics absorb ultrasonic energy, making it less effective. 

They also told us to use glass beakers and metal baskets and not plastic ones for the same reason. 

I've used glass jars for cleaning for years and have not found any issues. But I have to admit that I've never tried using a plastic container in my ultrasound. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

20 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

I think this statement needs to be verified.

I remember the manufacturers of ultrasonic cleaners telling us that when cleaning plastic instruments, the time has to be doubled as plastics absorb ultrasonic energy, making it less effective. 

They also told us to use glass beakers and metal baskets and not plastic ones for the same reason. 

I've used glass jars for cleaning for years and have not found any issues. But I have to admit that I've never tried using a plastic container in my ultrasound. 

Hi HectorLooi.  I noticed that using glass jars wasn't  getting the parts as clean as I wanted and thought maybe my ultrasonic wasn't powerful enough. So I thought I would try a less dense material. Experiment time. A glass jar and a plastic tub both filled to the same height with water and to the same depth in the ultra sonic bath. I observed that the sonic waves seemed much stronger in the plastic tub compared to the glass jar.

[Malocchio]

If you're using a cheap ultrasonic cleaner like me, you might want to check which areas of the cleaner tank are really active. I found out that there's one hot spot in mine and other areas are quite dead. Cut a piece of aluminum foil and shape it to cover the bottom of the tank. Fill with water, turn the machine on and see what parts of the foil get perforated. You can also put some foil inside a glass container filled with your cleaning fluid of choice and see if US waves penetrate the glass.

 

[jdm]

 

5 hours ago, Malocchio said:

I found out that there's one hot spot in mine and other areas are quite dead.

That is where the transducer is attached on the bottom  of the tank.

Edited August 7, 2022 by jdm

[odlmag]

Hi guys,

Have been cleaning my watch parts in a jar of Naphta with a brush and blower to stir up some agitation. Then rinsing in two jars of IPA. However I am short of time because of two young kids, and just bought a semi cheap (ca 90 USD) Ultrasonic cleaner (with heater) to speed up the process and hopefully do a better job. 

But now when reading up on this subject (and the many MANY views/versions to this) I am just more confused... 

So I have some basic questions that I have not really gotten an answer to during my researching. Or more possibly not understood while reading. 

Some pre info: 
I am just a simple hobbyist tinkering in our home guest bedroom. Kids are usually home as well but sleeping. And of course, I understand best result is obtained with professional machines and solutions/rinses. But it is maybe not the best option for unventilated rooms for home hobbyists. 

1. I bought Naphta ("Bensin") and IPA as cleaning/rinse as that is easily available here in Sweden and recomended in many forums. However when researching the Ultrasonic method I realize many are mentioning the harmfull effects of especially Naphta. 
I am not really bothered by the smell, I close the glass jar with a lid often. But am I anyway exposing myself to a "silent killer" when brushing the parts in the jar?
I have never felt any effect of the fumes such as dizziness etc..

2. I read that many go with Naphta in the Ultrasonic, in a jar. But some also write that it might explode  So what is it? And IF, do I go with the lid of the jar on or off? 
Open lid = more fumes can react with outside fire hazards?
Closed lid = gas build up explosion?
And same question for IPA then ?
And can you then use the heater on the Ultrasonic? 

3. Researching alternatives to Naphta i came across Elma WF Pro which seemed nicely prized and easily available from CousinsUK for a entry set up. But reading up on it it seems more for professional use with maybe even worse fumes than Naphta. Am I correct in this assumption and should I keep it away from home and the guest bedroom? Same for alternatives L&R 111 and 566 ?

4. I then came across Elma 1:9 Red. This is mixed with water which seems to better regarding the fumes? True? But then many claim this is very bad for the parts. But if I then rinse in IPA should neutralize this rust effect? 

5. Elma 1:9 is out of stock and expected to arrive in March... So I am full circle now and back to Naphta i guess.  And thinking of returning the Ultrasonic if I can't use it with Naphta now. 
Or could I soak the parts in Naphta, then do ultraosnic in soapy water, and then finninsh with IPA to get rid of the water?

This turned our longer than I anticipated, sorry for that and thanks to anyone who bares with until here  I realize now after formulating my thoughts that my questions here puts me in a postition for even more confuse... 
And again I get that "you get what you pay for" and I guess "you get what you smell" as the worse the fumes are the better the cleaning is (basically). But for safe home use and ultrasonic - what is my best route here? 

And finally, even though I am at home all solutions are stored in tight jars in a closed plastic box where no kids can get to them! And residual smells when not in use (So we do not need THAT discussion if anyone was tempted  ) 

 

 

[mikepilk]

43 minutes ago, odlmag said:

2. I read that many go with Naphta in the Ultrasonic, in a jar. But some also write that it might explode  So what is it? And IF, do I go with the lid of the jar on or off? 
Open lid = more fumes can react with outside fire hazards?
Closed lid = gas build up explosion?
And same question for IPA then ?
And can you then use the heater on the Ultrasonic? 

3. Researching alternatives to Naphta i came across Elma WF Pro which seemed nicely prized and easily available from CousinsUK for a entry set up. But reading up on it it seems more for professional use with maybe even worse fumes than Naphta. Am I correct in this assumption and should I keep it away from home and the guest bedroom? Same for alternatives L&R 111 and 566 ?

I use Elma WF Pro cleaner and Elma Suprol Pro rinse (and IPA) in an ultrasonic in a small room.

I did use naphtha/isopropanol, but wished I'd switched to Elma sooner. They do clean significantly better than naphtha, and recommend using them (or equivalent L&R) - but they do smell more.

I clean in a 60W ultrasonic, heated to about 40C, though the cleaners work well at room temp. 

I did use open beakers, and the smell was quite bad - I have a fan blowing and window open. The rinse is much worse fumes than the cleaner. I recently switched to jam jars, first with the lid sat loosely on - very little smell, but then tried sealing the lid. There was no build up of pressure, and of course, little smell. You will get some smell from just handling the chemicals. But with a fan and open window, I have no problems. The IPA smell is no problem 

I use the small brass/gauze containers to clean the parts in, sat in the plastic tray shown (all from Cousins). This just fits nicely in wide jars, and makes putting them in and out of the solutions easy. I have 4 jars - cleaner, 2 x rinse, IPA

I do 5mins in cleaner solution, 2 x rinse solutions of 2 mins each, then 30sec in IPA. All squeaky clean.

Kept in jam jars, there is no residual smell.

 

Edited February 2, 2023 by mikepilk

[Kalanag]

1 hour ago, odlmag said:

…I read that many go with Naphta in the Ultrasonic, in a jar. But some also write that it might explode  So what is it? And IF, do I go with the lid of the jar on or off? 
Open lid = more fumes can react with outside fire hazards?
Closed lid = gas build up explosion?
And same question for IPA then ?
And can you then use the heater on the Ultrasonic? 

Naphta or IPA inside a closed jar will never lead to an explosion . Inside the jar is not enough oxygen for an explosive mixture even if there was an ignition source. The open jar is more critical.

The other threat to think about is pressure building up inside the closed jar due to heating. To be safe I would turn off the heater. I personally never experienced a dangerous pressure build up even when using the heater.

Edited February 2, 2023 by Kalanag

[odlmag]

37 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

I use Elma WF Pro cleaner and Elma Suprol Pro rinse (and IPA) in an ultrasonic in a small room.

Wow thanks for the thorough answer! Just about the same plan as I had then  

I'll try the Elma WF and see how it works out. But to start tonight I might then go with the Naptha if safe. Some delivery time to get the Elma to here. 

And thanks for the tip with the lift container, smart!

Did you also notice a big quality difference for the rinse? 
If it has "worse" fumes than the cleaner I might start of with continuing with the IPA for now. Seeing as we have freezing temperatures outside now I prefer to keep the window closed  

[JohnFrum]

I’ve been using Naptha/IPA in closed jars in my ultrasonic without issue. Heater off. 
 

Edited February 2, 2023 by JohnFrum

[odlmag]

4 minutes ago, Kalanag said:

To be safe I would turn off the heater.

Ok then I can try it out tonight already, with the solutions i already have. Nice   And thanks!

Yeah, I'll save the heating function for when I clean bracelets and cases with just water / soap. 

1 minute ago, JohnFrum said:

I’ve been using Naptha/IPA in closed jars in my ultrasonic without issue. 
 

Ok great, confidence building up now!

Maybe a dumb question, but do you use regular water in the ultrasonic? Cold as is? I saw somewhere someone was adding detergent or something to "change the composition of the molecules" or whatever. (Even though using jars) 

[Nucejoe]

Do not sniff ISP.

 

[mikepilk]

9 hours ago, odlmag said:

I saw somewhere someone was adding detergent or something to "change the composition of the molecules" or whatever. (Even though using jars) 

As we would say in the UK, that is utter **BLEEP**. Plain, slightly warm, tap water is fine. I set my u/s to 40C, and there is no build up of pressure in the jars. You could see the lid bulge if it started to pressurise.

If you just have the tops sat on loosely, there was no noticeable smell. 

(I was censored ! All I said was b*ll*cks )

Edited February 2, 2023 by mikepilk

[gpraceman]

I am interested in an ultrasonic cleaner.  I am looking at the GemOro 1.5PTH, https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0176PTKT8/.  Seems a bit of a step up from the cheaper Chinese units (but I could be wrong).  It has a heater, but no heater control.  According to the promo video, it gets up to about 70 C.  Seems rather too hot, when most people seem to use about 40 C temp.  They do have a more expensive unit that has a heater control, https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0176RHGGU/.  Not sure if the heater features are worth it or just use hot tap water to make up the cleaning solution.  Maybe get the less expensive model and don't use the heater with watch parts (but may be useful for cleaning other items).

Edited March 18, 2023 by gpraceman

[mikepilk]

8 hours ago, gpraceman said:

I am interested in an ultrasonic cleaner.  I am looking at the GemOro 1.5PTH, https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0176PTKT8/.  Seems a bit of a step up from the cheaper Chinese units (but I could be wrong).  It has a heater, but no heater control.  According to the promo video, it gets up to about 70 C.  Seems rather too hot, when most people seem to use about 40 C temp.  They do have a more expensive unit that has a heater control, https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0176RHGGU/.  Not sure if the heater features are worth it or just use hot tap water to make up the cleaning solution.  Maybe get the less expensive model and don't use the heater with watch parts (but may be useful for cleaning other items).

If you want a heater, you want to be able to control the temperature - or just use warm water.

And you want a timer.

From what I've discovered, the ultrasonics used in the pro watch cleaning machines are 50-60W. Too much power and you could damage small parts.