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Everything else seems to be running as expected, but my watch is still running fast


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I recently finished a Waltham pocket watch.  After putting it through cleaning, oiling, demagnetizing, everything seems to be running fine.  I replaced the blue steel mainspring with a white alloy of equivalent dimensions.  Amplitude is healthy (high 200's), no rebanking or overbanking.  But the watch is running fast.  I turned the regulator all the way to slow, but it's still running fast, by several minutes per day.  The hairspring is properly seated between the regulator pins so I know the regulator is doing its job.  Any idea what could be causing this?

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16 minutes ago, GregG said:

I recently finished a Waltham pocket watch.  After putting it through cleaning, oiling, demagnetizing, everything seems to be running fine.  I replaced the blue steel mainspring with a white alloy of equivalent dimensions.  Amplitude is healthy (high 200's), no rebanking or overbanking.  But the watch is running fast.  I turned the regulator all the way to slow, but it's still running fast, by several minutes per day.  The hairspring is properly seated between the regulator pins so I know the regulator is doing its job.  Any idea what could be causing this?

Did you timegraph the watch before you started work on it ?

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1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Did you timegraph the watch before you started work on it ?

It wasn't running when I received it 

1 hour ago, mikepilk said:

Can you post a pic of the balance. Maybe someone has been messing with the balance screws.

Attached.  It's running and i am not home to take a picture of it when stopped, but I believe they're all there.

Screenshot_20230529-110107.png

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Hairspring is either magnetised, greasy or out of centre. If it was me I would remove the h/ spring and clean with a de- greaser. If it lays flat and know coils sticking together and are equally distanced but when assembled they are bunched then the terminal curve is incorrect.

Edited by clockboy
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1 hour ago, clockboy said:

Hairspring is either magnetised, greasy or out of centre. If it was me I would remove the h/ spring and clean with a de- greaser. If it lays flat and know coils sticking together and are equally distanced but when assembled they are bunched then the terminal curve is incorrect.

It's perfectly concentric when not fixed to the cock.  Although these don't have a terminal curve or an overcoil like modern watches, I think these just pinned in wherever the coil happened to be.  Take a look at these pictures:

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/assets/dropbox/watch/xlarge/7d0ad4d659279193383ffdeb34dfa1c6.jpeg

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/assets/dropbox/watch/xlarge/fc40578ee9d42871aff57cb9f70a586b.jpg

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/assets/dropbox/watch/xlarge/7e0d8a28c236766e1886d249cc05ead3.jpg

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/assets/dropbox/watch/xlarge/91e7fe5106c3423f71631f7eca24c30a.jpg

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2 hours ago, GregG said:

It wasn't running when I received it 

other than changing the mainspring anything else that you did to it other than cleaning?

Then timing machine what does it look like on the timing machine now?

4 hours ago, GregG said:

I turned the regulator all the way to slow, but it's still running fast, by several minutes per day.  The hairspring is properly seated between the regulator pins so I know the regulator is doing its job.  Any idea what could be causing this?

this is a vintage pocket watch that you received not running what makes you think it's supposed to keep time?

The problem with vintage anything is that it's gone through a lot of hands some skilled some not along the way things have happened to it. This means the assumption of cleaning and a mainspring and it will work perfectly sometimes occurs with a lot of times does not.

common reasons why American pocket watches do not keep time which actually applies to just about everything. The basics is the balance wheel round? What do I mean by that let's look at an image

image.png.2946219a82c747e9b00022e8b54dc587.png

a bimetallic balance wheel is really easy to get bent and casually when you look at the arms they should form a circle in the image above I didn't circle where the problem is but it looks to me like the arms are not in alignment? We need a better picture of the balance wheel preferably out of the watch so we can see all of it

common problems would be somebody had a bad hair spring day at may not be the original hairspring. I was looking in the parts list and there were a whole bunch of different hairsprings available for this watch. One of the problems of Waltham in that they had a lot of variations there is several different balance wheels several hairsprings including at least one over coil hairspring lots of variations which means lots of opportunities for people to mix-and-match possibly. Although your close enough in time it's probably the right hairspring.

Then people replace the balance staff and the balance wheel gets bad up that way. In other words the arms get squeezed EN or somehow move out like what yours looks like. Then they attempt the poise the balance wheel in this condition that makes things much worse or for whatever reason they just like screwing up the poise the balance wheel. This even shows up at work with Rolex watches modern Rolex watch and people rotated the volt timing weights and the watches out of poise and it's not even keeping time. So they can screw up a modern Rolex watch just think what they can do with a pocket watch

also look at all the screws doesn't look like you have any mean time screws. Usually can recognize those because the screw length is longer typically they would stick out but a lot of times people think they need to be screwed down tight also yours doesn't seem to have that but check all the screws and make sure that they are down tight be careful not to over tighten or they break off. Also make sure you have matched pairs if there's one on one side should be an identical one on the other side. Often times the screws would it loosen the cleaning machine or just with time

look for things like timing washers in other words somebody staff the watch in the past felt that it was often timekeeping be there start grossly undercutting or sometimes filing the screws or they start throwing timing washers under everything you start seeing is things like that you may have timing issues for that alone.

then timing machines are nice for diagnostics what is it look like on the timing machine or can you even time it?

Look carefully at the hairspring make sure it's not touching anything it's not supposed to be touching. And yes the early watches did not have terminal curve's that came later. But look carefully make sure they hairspring is bumping into the back side of the regulator pin. It needs seven a very tiny band like a terminal curve just keep it away from the regulator pin sometimes a bump into that or if it's rubbing on the balance arms etc.

is the watch magnetized?

Oh and when they hairspring is pinned to the stud is there any extra hairspring sticking out here? A lot of times in the vintage watches because they didn't have an exact timing they would leave you room for adjustments. Versus the modern watch was pinned in a very exact location and there's no extra hairspring left to play with

 

 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, GregG said:
3 hours ago, clockboy said:

 

It's perfectly concentric when not fixed to the cock. 

They often are and so often not an issue with the hairspring itself if its perfectly clean,  not magnetic and the correct length. So this is only half the story of the hairspring, it lives somewhere, that place is also its place of work. And to be able to work efficiently it has to be attached to that place of work correctly at two places, attached to the stud and attached to the collet. Oh wow John R I'm starting to sound like you .🙂

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Going by the photo of the balance and hairspring I can see it is not right as others have said. You say you changed the mainspring with a new one with the  equivalent dimensions. Who is to say the old mainspring was correct in the first place. I  would change that spring with a slightly weaker one. But you must fix the hairspring so it doesn't touch the other coils because at present as it is it will never keep good time. 

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Waltham 18s mainsprings are #2203, which came in three varieties, same heights and lengths, but differing slightly in thickness.  0.215 mm vs 0.22 mm vs 0.225 mm.  The one I bought on Cousins was GR7121T, which is the 0.22 mm version.  Though I think @Neverenoughwatchesis correct.  Knowing myself, I probably secured the balance with the cock lying on the table upside down (so the impulse pin is pointing upwards).  If I secured it while it's loose, the hairspring stud might have rotated a tiny bit.  If you look at the picture I provided, the stud looks like its pointing down to the right (135 degrees from vertical) .  If I loosen the screw while the staff is secured at both the top and bottom, it might correct itself and fit into the proper orientation (maybe 150 degrees from vertical).

Edited by GregG
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1 hour ago, GregG said:

Waltham 18s mainsprings are #2203, which came in three varieties, same heights and lengths, but differing slightly in thickness.  0.215 mm vs 0.22 mm vs 0.225 mm.  The one I bought on Cousins was GR7121T, which is the 0.22 mm version.  Though I think @Neverenoughwatchesis correct.  Knowing myself, I probably secured the balance with the cock lying on the table upside down (so the bottom of the balance staff is pointing upwards).  If I secured it while it's loose, the hairspring stud might have rotated a tiny bit.  If you look at the picture I provided, the stud looks like its pointing down to the right (135 degrees from vertical) .  If I loosen the screw, it might correct itself and fit into the proper orientation (maybe 150 degrees from vertical).

It seems to be more often than not with me that non concentric coils of the hairspring are down to stud positioning in the carrier and/or the pinning of the hairspring at the stud. Most often this is where adjustment of the hairspring is needed to correct some previous rough handling while removing the balance. 

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3 hours ago, GregG said:

Waltham 18s mainsprings are #2203, which came in three varieties, same heights and lengths, but differing slightly in thickness.  0.215 mm vs 0.22 mm vs 0.225 mm.  The one I bought on Cousins was GR7121T, which is the 0.22 mm version. 

the problem with American pocket watch mainsprings are at one time they came in lots of different thicknesses. Then some watch companies like Elgin even had bonus thicknesses outside of the normal range. But today that problem has typically been solved for you in that you're lucky if you get a mainspring at all typically there's only one mainspring available. There are some American pocket watches where at least on paper it indicates there are other thicknesses in existence currently but obtaining one may be an issue.

3 hours ago, GregG said:

Knowing myself, I probably secured the balance with the cock lying on the table upside down (so the impulse pin is pointing upwards).  If I secured it while it's loose, the hairspring stud might have rotated a tiny bit

nothing wrong with doing this as it's a lot easier than trying to do it in the watch. But once it's in the watch without power often times it helps the loosen the screw and reposition things. Sometimes you'll have to adjust the height you're either too low or too high. The studs do not magically always line up being even with the bridge unlike modern watches were typically that is the case. In any case once it's in the watch without power you do want to verify that everything looks right. Because unfortunately hairsprings present the biggest nightmare for us all and the represents the location of the greatest cause of problems for us. Unfortunately I speak from experience.

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Most often this is where adjustment of the hairspring is needed to correct some previous rough handling while removing the balance

then yes there is this problem a lot of times removing the balance with bridge from the watch it will bend at the stud.

 

3 hours ago, GregG said:

If I loosen the screw while the staff is secured at both the top and bottom, it might correct itself and fit into the proper orientation (maybe 150 degrees from vertical).

in other words in the watch. Usually the best place to solve a watch hairspring problem is with the balance wheel in the watch. If and this can present a challenge with pocket watches if the stud is very loose when it's unscrewed you can turn the watch sideways and you can loosen the stud screw and the stud will typically find its own position as the watches running. Sometimes that works because the other problem that happens when you loosen the stud screw especially if it's heavy it will fall. But a lot of times in pocket watches it just won't move very much at all. But definitely best to do the final tweaking in the watch where you can see what things look like. Often times out of the watch still looked perfectly centered they might even look flat but it's in the watch where the problems occur and that's where the problems need to be fixed.

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I'm beginning to suspect that several things may have been replaced.  First, in the photos, notice that even when adjusted as far as it can go towards the slow end, the regulator arm only makes it half way to the S from the center line.  This makes me think the regulator arm is incorrect. 

Second, I purposely adjusted the stud slightly so that the hairspring doesn't fall between the pins.  Now the hairspring is running perfectly concentrically.  There was no way I could turn the stud to allow it to be concentric while staying inside the pins; another thing that makes me think that the arm was not original. 

And lastly, even though the entire spring is free (which should allow for the longest oscillation period), it's still running a little fast, which makes me think the hairspring was replaced and not vibrated correctly.  However, it's now at about +60 seconds/day with 0.1 ms beat error, as opposed to +5 mins/day.

Edited by GregG
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6 hours ago, GregG said:

And lastly, even though the entire spring is free (which should allow for the longest oscillation period), it's still running a little fast, which makes me think the hairspring was replaced and not vibrated correctly.  However, it's now at about +60 seconds/day with 0.1 ms beat error, as opposed to +5 mins/day.

if you really wanted this perfect I would put the regulator back at zero and see how fast you're going then a pair of timing washers should solve the problem and get you really really close.

6 hours ago, GregG said:

I'm beginning to suspect that several things may have been replaced.  First, in the photos, notice that even when adjusted as far as it can go towards the slow end, the regulator arm only makes it half way to the S from the center line.  This makes me think the regulator arm is incorrect. 

if you look at the pictures at the links you gave above you'll notice that I think the regulating arm is just fine. As a reminder this was made when this watch exactly? Plus it's not a railroad grade so what timing specifications did they have anyway?

so realistically for watch of this age I think you did very well

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8 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

if you really wanted this perfect I would put the regulator back at zero and see how fast you're going then a pair of timing washers should solve the problem and get you really really close.

if you look at the pictures at the links you gave above you'll notice that I think the regulating arm is just fine. As a reminder this was made when this watch exactly? Plus it's not a railroad grade so what timing specifications did they have anyway?

so realistically for watch of this age I think you did very well

Thank you for the compliment.  I suppose someone could have fastened the screws all the way inwards and messed up the timing.  I've just never seen a watch where this was the case.  I've been doing this for a few years and this is the first scenario I've seen that (not due to my own weaknesses) a watch was running fast no matter what I do.

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1 hour ago, GregG said:

I suppose someone could have fastened the screws all the way inwards and messed up the timing.  I've just never seen a watch where this was the case.  I've been doing this for a few years and this is the first scenario I've seen that (not due to my own weaknesses) a watch was running fast no matter what I do.

My day job is typically vintage pocket watches mainly American watches. This means over the years I see in a variety of things.

A watch came and my boss looks at it tells the customer will have to replace the balance wheel because. He explains a story which is? The balance wheel has almost no screws way lesson there supposed to have so he explains the story that oh dear when the oils were going bad rather than cleaning the watch the watchmaker just remove screws disputed up to make up for the bad lubrication. Yes that's a nice story people in sales well they say things lots of things. So I was instructed to replace the balance wheel because it's obviously wrong. Except if I can I like to run pre-timing on watches. In other words I can clean them enough that they will run so that I can see what the timing will be before I do the final everything because if you must spend a lot of time trying to get at the time out all have it in and out so many times it just easier if you fall the standard procedure of making all your repairs then clean the watch and then have a nice clean watch to assemble and not have to disassemble 1 billion times. So did I change the balance complete no because somebody as a guess had a bad hairspring day they replace the hairspring but the balance wheel is too heavy so they lightened it by removing 90% of the screws and this thing kept absolute perfect time. So while it wasn't right it Time it's fine.

But yes I run into timing issues all the time with the watch sometimes I'm lucky they haven't been played with other times they have. One of my annoyances is with the mean time screws those year fine adjustments screws as how on railroad grade watches you can put the regulator at zero and use the mean time screws to bring the watch of the time and then just barely tweak the regulator. But often times there screwed down tight well because they can be. Then because of the threads size they have a limited life of moving them around and sometimes their loose because it been moved around so much.

So yes on vintage watches you never know quite what you're going to get. Then a course American pocket watches of the bonus issue of getting the watch perfect like currently a Hamilton 992 sitting on my bench and it's still sitting there because of case issues. Somebody broke the stem and the stems for American pocket watches are somewhat unique and I don't have a stem. So it's currently in holding until a new stem was acquired whenever that may be

so yes on American pocket watches a lot of things for people to play with they like to squeeze the balance wheel bend the arms that screws up timekeeping. Playing with the mean time screws screws up timekeeping insane poising where and this becomes an interesting of bickering between me and somebody on another group he asked he wrote an entire paper on precision pocket watch timing and points out about the lunacy of hobbyists. His annoyances that they undercut the screws for poising so his argument is when the watch left the factory there's no need to undercut the screws his recommendation is timing washers but if there's no need to undercut there's no need to throw timing washers under the balance wheel. So you'll end up with a variety of timing screw issues they've either been filed on visibly or undercut. Undercutting is preferred because it's not visible but it's not preferred to undercut to the point where the screws go fall off. Or loads of timing washers all over the place is unacceptable.

Then the other you get with American pocket watches as they like to play with the banking pins. Which have a very specific purpose which is only for foreign clearance but is used for other reasons but that presents issues.

So while you may be lucky and cleaning in a new mainspring solves all your problems sometimes sometimes it are the exact opposite. This of you get timing within a minute a day you're doing outstanding.

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