Prim watch surprise

[Neverenoughwatches]

Hello my good watch peeps , hope you are all doing well. I just wanted to share something regarding a Prim watch i bought while in the Czech Republic a few months ago. This brand rarely pops up on the forum, and as far as I'm aware Prim were the first and sole manufacturer of watches in Czechoslovakia  sometime around the mid 50's. Thinking this was only a cheap industrial style of watch much like the Russian Raketas , poljots etc i never bothered to peek inside. It was more or less just a souvenir and was only around £25. So today i thought i would take a look and was surprised to see an overcoiled hairspring happily oscillating away. It appears their first ten years of production calibres were all fitted with a Breguet hairspring. Does anyone else find this unusual? 

[RichardHarris123]

I have a Prim movement in a fake Rolex, I'll take photos.  I haven't looked to see if it's an over coil. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

34 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

I have a Prim movement in a fake Rolex, I'll take photos.  I haven't looked to see if it's an over coil. 

Do you know what caliber it is Rich ? If Roland's site info is comprehensive everything they did up to a 6 series was a Brequet. From their founding in the mid 50s up to the mid 60's. Their logo changed around then as well. I have another Prim with their second logo its pretty basic shite inside. 

Edited May 25, 2023 by Neverenoughwatches

[RichardHarris123]

5 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Do you know what caliber it is Rich ? If Roland's site info is comprehensive everything they did up to a 6 series was a Brequet. From their founding in the mid 50s up to the mid 60's. Their logo changed around then as well. I have another Prim with their second logo its pretty basic shite inside. 

A long time since I looked.  I'll have a look tomorrow and take photos. 

[Marc]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Does anyone else find this unusual

Not in the least bit. A lot of those cheap industrial industrial style Russian Raketa's, Poljot's, etc. were also equipped with Breguet overcoil hair springs.

[Neverenoughwatches]

Just now, Marc said:

Not in the least bit. A lot of those cheap industrial industrial style Russian Raketa's, Poljot's, etc. were also equipped with Breguet overcoil hair springs.

Appreciate that information Marc i didn't know that. 

[Endeavor]

10 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Thinking this was only a cheap industrial style of watch much like the Russian Raketas , poljots etc i never bothered to peek inside.

A lot of people don't know but there are quite a few, what you call "cheap industrial style" watches who have in fact a movement from Swiss origin.

So is the Poljot 3133 chronograph a Valjoux 7734. The Soviet people actually improved the beat from 18,000 to 21,600 BPH.

The Molnija 3602 is a Cortebert 624 movement, earlier used by Rolex as well. If you take for example an early version (1949 to about 1958/59), these movements are beautifully made, complete with Geneva stripes (I own a few prime examples). The date of the one in the picture 3-51 stands for 3rd quarter 1951. Very beautiful and robust movement.

The Poljot 3017 is based upon the Venus 175, and probably the list goes on and on.

I owned and worked on many Soviet/Russian watches, predominately Vostok, Poljot chronographs and Molnija pocket-watches, so I can't say much about all the other brands, of which there are many such as Raketa, Luch, Prim etc, etc.

My experience, from the 3x brands I've been working on, is that the best quality movements are from the Soviet period. The Poljot 3133 movement was in my opinion good till in the 1990's. Poljot went burst in early 2000, others took over such as MakTime, but the quality went downhill. Same with Molnija, good movements till in the early '90's, even though the Geneva stripes disappeared already after the 1950's.

There are very nice movements to be get, be it often in a different taste of wrapping.

If you haven't been into Russian watches jet, you missed out on a lot

A small warning; the Soviet / Russian watch-world is a totally different ball-game, it's a kind of (very exciting) wild-west and you need to know what you are doing / buying. Many sellers with beautiful blue eyes.

 

Edited May 26, 2023 by Endeavor

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, Endeavor said:

A lot of people don't know but there are quite a few, what you call "cheap industrial style" watches who have in fact a movement from Swiss origin.

So is the Poljot 3133 chronograph a Valjoux 7734. The Soviet people actually improved the beat from 18,000 to 21,600 BPH.

The Molnija 3602 is a Cortebert 624 movement, earlier used by Rolex as well. If you take for example an early version (1949 to about 1958/59), these movements are beautifully made, complete with Geneva stripes (I own a few prime examples). The date of the one in the picture 3-51 stands for 3rd quarter 1951. Very beautiful and robust movement.

The Poljot 3017 is based upon the Venus 175, and probably the list goes on and on.

I owned and worked on many Soviet/Russian watches, predominately Vostok, Poljot chronographs and Molnija pocket-watches, so I can't say much about all the other brands, of which there are many such as Raketa, Luch, Prim etc, etc.

My experience, form the 3x brands I've been working on, is that the best quality movements are from the Soviet period. The Poljot 3133 movement was in my opinion good till in the 1990's. Poljot went burst in early 2000, others took over such as MakTime, but the quality went downhill. Same with Molnija, good movements till in the early '90's, even though the Geneva stripes disappeared already after the 1950's.

There are very nice movements to be get, be it often in a different taste of wrapping.

If you haven't been into Russian watches jet, you missed out on a lot

A small warning; the Soviet / Russian watch-world is a totally different ball-game, it's a kind of (very exciting) wild-west and you need to know what you are doing / buying. Many sellers with beautiful blue eyes.

 

Thats some really interesting information there Endeavor, i knew of the nice quality chronographs but all of that is well worth learning about and knowing. Cheers me dears

[Endeavor]

Sadly the owner of this website has (most likely) passed and his website disappeared. Luckily, somebody is hosting (I think a WUS Russian-forum member) a mirror (for as long as it last). Tons and tons of invaluable (need to know) information regarding the Poljot 3133:  https://www.mfkrlives.com/polmax3133/

WUS has a really good Russian-watch section: https://www.watchuseek.com/forums/russian-watches.10/

Even though I'm not a member anymore, you may still see my forum name popping up

 

Edited May 26, 2023 by Endeavor

[kd8tzc]

15 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Breguet hairspring

 

13 hours ago, Marc said:

Breguet overcoil hair springs

What do you all mean by Breguet and overcoil hair springs?  Sorry, I'm newer to this and have not studied the hairsprings all that much.

[VWatchie]

15 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

So today i thought i would take a look and was surprised to see an overcoiled hairspring happily oscillating away. It appears their first ten years of production calibres were all fitted with a Breguet hairspring. Does anyone else find this unusual?

Well, when I first started coming across Breguet hairsprings, it was in Soviet movements, and I would say I didn't expect it and was very surprised, but I've since then learned that it isn't all that unusual. Not sure why I didn't expect it and was surprised. Maybe it is the result of the, dare I say it, western propaganda that the Russians are generally incompetent. Still, in reality, they excel in many fields such as aviation, space, weapon systems (for example their Missile Defence System), medicine, and science in general. So, why not in horology when and if they want to?

Anyway, it is important to remember that the Soviet horological industry was not about satisfying a marketplace but instead mainly about providing timekeeping for the masses in a practical form. We can see this Russian approach in many fields. For example, the AK-47 isn't known to be a weapon of precision but instead made to be inexpensive, reliable, and practical, but I have no doubt that they have the competence to achieve what they need and want.

37 minutes ago, kd8tzc said:

What do you all mean by Breguet and overcoil hair springs?

If you Google it you'll find many articles about it. Here's one short intro:  https://www.breguet.com/en/history/inventions/breguet-balance-spring#

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, kd8tzc said:

 

What do you all mean by Breguet and overcoil hair springs?  Sorry, I'm newer to this and have not studied the hairsprings all that much.

As suggested by Watchie a quick google search will explain.  But  basically a design of hairspring that has been around a really long time that improves a watch's timekeeping.

[kd8tzc]

23 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

But  basically a design of hairspring that has been around a really long time that improves a watch's timekeeping.

Interesting... so why does it seem (at least in the watches I own) that they have moved away from the over coil design in more modern watches?  I know my Seiko's don't have this (at least I never noticed it if they do), but I will take a look at my Omega and Certina watches that have European movements in them.

[Neverenoughwatches]

13 minutes ago, kd8tzc said:

Interesting... so why does it seem (at least in the watches I own) that they have moved away from the over coil design in more modern watches?  I know my Seiko's don't have this (at least I never noticed it if they do), but I will take a look at my Omega and Certina watches that have European movements in them.

I dont think its a case of moving away from that design. Its just a hallmark of better quality watches and ones that require a more accurate timekeeping are more likely to have an overcoil spring. Grand Seiko is an example of that. 

[kd8tzc]

Okay, makes sense.  I'm sure it costs more to produce and regulate.  Would this be something I may see in my Omega Seamaster if I ever decided to work on that (no, I am not anywhere near where I would feel qualified to do that, but more curious on what is in the watch).  I believe it has a 1120 caliber movement in it.

[VWatchie]

26 minutes ago, kd8tzc said:

Okay, makes sense.  I'm sure it costs more to produce and regulate.  Would this be something I may see in my Omega Seamaster if I ever decided to work on that (no, I am not anywhere near where I would feel qualified to do that, but more curious on what is in the watch).  I believe it has a 1120 caliber movement in it.

The Omega cal. 1120 is based on the ETA 2892-A2 and does not have a Breguet hairspring as far as I can tell. When you feel you're up to it you may find my service walkthrough of the ETA 2892-A2 useful.

[kd8tzc]

2 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

The Omega cal. 1120 is based on the ETA 2892-A2 and does not have a Breguet hairspring as far as I can tell. When you feel you're up to it you may find my service walkthrough of the ETA 2892-A2 useful.

Thanks... I know my wife spent a good deal on this watch for me, so I don't think I will feel comfortable working on it for quite some time.  I will most certainly take a look at your walk through though.  When you say "based on", do you mean it is the same as except for the Omega stamp on it or are there significant differences but say XX% of the info is the same?

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

Okay, makes sense.  I'm sure it costs more to produce and regulate.  Would this be something I may see in my Omega Seamaster if I ever decided to work on that (no, I am not anywhere near where I would feel qualified to do that, but more curious on what is in the watch).  I believe it has a 1120 caliber movement in it.

A quick search on Roland Ranftt's bidfun site will show you what is inside.

[RichardHarris123]

The question is pretty much answered but mines a 68.3. No over coil. 

PS, Prague on Sunday so I'll have another to show you. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, RichardHarris123 said:

The question is pretty much answered but mines a 68.3. No over coil. 

PS, Prague on Sunday so I'll have another to show you. 

Enjoy Rich. Dont forget to search out  the antique shop i told  you  about. Real old school with a hand wrote receipt and everything

[RichardHarris123]

5 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Enjoy Rich. Dont forget to search out  the antique shop i told  you  about. Real old school with a hand wrote receipt and everything

I certainly will do.  

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, RichardHarris123 said:

The question is pretty much answered but mines a 68.3. No over coil. 

PS, Prague on Sunday so I'll have another to show you. 

 

2 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

The question is pretty much answered but mines a 68.3. No over coil. 

This is a newer calibre than mine. The quality dropped after the 5 series.

[Neverenoughwatches]

13 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

 

This is a newer calibre than mine. The quality dropped after the 5 series.

You will find older calibres in Prague, look for the ones that have the same Prim logo as the one i posted.  The two antique shops i mentioned will have something at a good price.  They are a little way from where you are staying, maybe a couple of miles at most. I'm sure you will visit Wenceslas square and less than a mile or so from there. Give us a shout if you need direction.  Enjoy your holiday Rich.

[Endeavor]

Look out for the many Frankens too