Barrel Arbor Holder vs. Pin Vice

[RickTock]

I would be most grateful if those in the know would educate me on the subject of barrel arbor holders.

How is a barrel arbor holder different from a pin vice? Is using a pin vice to hold a barrel arbor frowned upon? If one were to purchase a barrel arbor holder, what is the most common size for working on wrist watches? Are there cost effective options out there? All I seem to see are pricey options from Bergeon.

Thanks!!

[VWatchie]

2 hours ago, RickTock said:

If one were to purchase a barrel arbor holder, what is the most common size for working on wrist watches?

I have a Ø1.50mm Bergeon arbor holder and I absolutely love it.

The 1.5mm size seems to be a decent fit for most normally-sized movements, but would probably be too large for a lady's movement and too small for a large pocket watch. I asked Alex at the Watch Repair Tutorials YT channel what size he would recommend and he replied: "The size I use almost at the time is the 150.", so that's why I decided to get the same size. Here's the video where he's using it and you'll find Alexs' reply if you look for it in the comments section.

2 hours ago, RickTock said:

How is a barrel arbor holder different from a pin vice?

The arbor holder is much easier to clamp onto and release from the arbor (look at the picture). Also, it dramatically improves seeing what you're actually doing while removing and fitting the arbor from and into the inner coil of the mainspring. The head of the pin vice is most of the time so large it covers the entire arbor - and more - making it quite difficult to see what's going on.

2 hours ago, RickTock said:

Is using a pin vice to hold a barrel arbor frowned upon?

Absolutely not! It's just a whole lot less convenient in my opinion.

2 hours ago, RickTock said:

Are there cost effective options out there? All I seem to see are pricey options from Bergeon.

None that I'm aware of I'm afraid, but we have some experts on Chinese watch tools on the forum so hopefully they can shim in!?

Edited May 21, 2023 by VWatchie

[RickTock]

^^ Super helpful, thanks!!

[Kalanag]

Let me add the fact that the claws of a pin vice are more „aggressive“ compared to that of an arbor holder. That‘s important when dealing with polished pivots.

Edited May 22, 2023 by Kalanag

[Waggy]

Perhaps this from Ali?

[Neverenoughwatches]

9 hours ago, Kalanag said:

Let me add the fact that the claws of a pin vice are more „aggressive“ compared to that of an arbor holder. That‘s important when dealing with polished pivots.

Absolutely pinvises especially cheap ones are rough as hell inside and can easily scratch up a polished arbor.

[VWatchie]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Absolutely pinvises especially cheap ones are rough as hell inside and can easily scratch up a polished arbor.

I always used to worry about that before I got my arbor holder. With the arbor holder, I never saw the slightest dent och scratch on the arbor even after having pinched it very hard.

[Endeavor]

Just bought this PinVice; 0 - 1.5mm. It has two bits, one with internal rounded fingers and the other bit has the edged fingers.

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/single-ended-round-with-2-collets-horotec?code=P58276

So far I've only been using it to hold a 2824-2 winding stem. Seems nicely made, works well and you get "two" for the price of £8.50 excl. VAT.

Depending on your location, members Waggy suggestion seems price-wise okay. However if you live in the economic suicidal European union, by the time I get it in my hands (due to duties and registration fees) it cost me over $34 .......

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Absolutely pinvises especially cheap ones are rough as hell inside and can easily scratch up a polished arbor.

That's the reason for me buying the Horrortec

 

Edited May 23, 2023 by Endeavor

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, VWatchie said:

I always used to worry about that before I got my arbor holder. With the arbor holder, I never saw the slightest dent och scratch on the arbor even after having pinched it very hard.

It was just a warning regarding the cheap ones that use a collar to tighten the jaws. The design looks similar to the Bergeon arbor vice they are really rough inside the jaws. The jaws aren't curved to hold the arbor snuggly and only grip at 4 sharp points. I was actually in the middle of stripping loads of barrels when i noticed the question so i thought a real time test was in order . Under magnification there was definitely some scratching up after some rough newbie impersonating

[pent]

I use the pin vises on stubborn arbor/spring combos, but it's very difficult to see what you're doing, especially on small arbors.  I will be getting an arbor holder to rectify this--especially now that I hear good things about them.

[LittleWatchShop]

Damn this forum!!  Another tool to put in the Shopping Cart.

[Waggy]

10 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

Damn this forum!!  Another tool to put in the Shopping Cart.

I second that..... there is now one in my shopping cart too!

Is the consensus that 1.5mm is the most versatile?

I just re-thought this and looked again at my Horotec pin vices:

I'll follow @Endeavorlead and use the rounded side (above) and see how that goes, maybe try on a few scrap components to see how badly they get beaten up (or not)

Just as a bit of fun I think we should start a new grading system for tools.... based upon the frequency you estimate you would need to use them:

for example:

• Screwdrivers you use on 100 out of 100 watches, so would be a 100% tool
• Staking set 5 in 100 watches, so would be a 5% tool
• Seitz jeweling tool 1 in 100 watches, so would be a 1% tool

Then we could start a new thread: What <1% Tool Can I not Live Without Next??

 

Edited May 25, 2023 by Waggy
typo

[Endeavor]

2 hours ago, Waggy said:

we should start a new grading system for tools.... based upon the frequency you estimate you would need to use them:

If you just grade on the frequency used, some tools will drop off the list. Some tools are (very) seldom used, but when you need such a tool, it's extremely handy to have them. To think of a balance-poising tool, a truing caliper, a Jacot tool and for more examples, I have to dive in my cupboard, remove all the cobwebs and see what else I have

Edited May 25, 2023 by Endeavor

[praezis]

there was a similar thread here.

Frank

[kd8tzc]

@RickTockThis is an excellent topic and thank you for posting it. It has answered a number of questions I have had…and more tools I might want to get sooner rather than later. All I have is a cheap pin vise, so seeing and hearing the differences between the pin vise vs barrel arbor holder is good to note and informative. 
 

as always, this forums members are so helpful with all their knowledge. 

[Tore]

These are super. With brass or bronse jaws.

[RickTock]

On 5/25/2023 at 7:54 AM, kd8tzc said:

@RickTock

...this forums members are so helpful with all their knowledge. 

Indeed!

22 hours ago, Tore said:

These are super. With brass or bronse jaws.

Those look very interesting (and vintage)! Love the brass/bronze construction -- softer than barrel arbor makes good sense. Kind of a long shot given how old these look, but any idea where these may be obtained?

[Tore]

I bought it (with some other tools) from a retired watchmaker. I didnt know the the real purpose with these in the first. Now i cant work without these. One for pocketwatch arbors, and one for wristwatches.

[DrHWO]

Are these also called sliding pin vices? I got mine from Cousins for £3.50, but needed to refashion the last 5mm of the jaws from 90 degree sharp corners by removing 0.5mm at a 45 degree angle. The gripping surfaces are therefore flat (not ideal but better than sharp corners). The "cutting" was done with a fine diamond file. Spreading the jaws out was done with a shard of hardwood. The hardest part was holding the workpiece. I'm a novice watch butcher, so please feel to ridicule. 

[VWatchie]

11 hours ago, DrHWO said:

Are these also called sliding pin vices?

No, these are specific tools (having a slider though), but it's definitely not the only tool that can be used to handle mainspring barrel arbors, but perhaps the most convenient (and most expensive ).

And, congrats on making your own arbor holder tool! 

Edited May 29, 2023 by VWatchie

[Neverenoughwatches]

12 hours ago, DrHWO said:

Are these also called sliding pin vices? I got mine from Cousins for £3.50, but needed to refashion the last 5mm of the jaws from 90 degree sharp corners by removing 0.5mm at a 45 degree angle. The gripping surfaces are therefore flat (not ideal but better than sharp corners). The "cutting" was done with a fine diamond file. Spreading the jaws out was done with a shard of hardwood. The hardest part was holding the workpiece. I'm a novice watch butcher, so please feel to ridicule. 

Good tip Doc. I did something similar to mine to reduce its holding aggressiveness by running a round file inside the jaws. A small round burr will make short work of shaping the jaws also. 

[mikepilk]

On 5/23/2023 at 10:18 AM, Endeavor said:

Just bought this PinVice; 0 - 1.5mm. It has two bits, one with internal rounded fingers and the other bit has the edged fingers.

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/single-ended-round-with-2-collets-horotec?code=P58276

 

So far I've only been using it to hold a 2824-2 winding stem. Seems nicely made, works well and you get "two" for the price of £8.50 excl. VAT.

Depending on your location, members Waggy suggestion seems price-wise okay. However if you live in the economic suicidal European union, by the time I get it in my hands (due to duties and registration fees) it cost me over $34 .......

That's the reason for me buying the Horrortec

 

I have one of these - excellent pin vice and worth the money. I rarely use it on barrel arbors -  I find stout tweezers usually do the job

[VWatchie]

7 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

I find stout tweezers usually do the job

Indeed, there are many ways to skin a cat! Personally, I find the Bergeon's arbor holder to be the most convenient. Like changing from walking to cycling. Especially when it's a tight fit.

Edited May 29, 2023 by VWatchie

[DrHWO]

And I came here to help manage my pathological tool envy disorder. Damn it!

[mikepilk]

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

Indeed, there are many ways to skin a cat! Personally, I find the Bergeon's arbor holder to be the most convenient. Like changing from walking to cycling. Especially when it's a tight fit.

I find my Bergeon Mk3 Cat Skinner an essential tool