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Identifying an Ancre Ligne Droite Pocketwatch


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Hello everyone, I’m new to the forum but my name is Laurie from LA and I was hoping for some help identifying this unbranded movement. I’m very new to watch repair but my good friend recently inherited a non-working pocket watch from her grandpa and I offered to take a look. It’s pretty grimy but the balance seems fine so I’m hopeful it just needs a routine service. Her grandpa lived in the north of France (Ardres) and I’m assuming it’s Swiss. There are no words on the movement and the only thing on the case is  “Ancre Ligne Droite ”, which, as I understand, seems to describe the style of escapement but doesn’t necessarily point to a specific brand. There’s also a number and mark that seems purposeful but also doesn’t look like anything.

I’m hoping to identify the movement mostly because I already bent the pivot of the center wheel while taking off the cannon pinion (I don’t have a proper remover yet) so I figured if I have more information about the movement I could find a donor movement more easily. Or in the event something else goes wrong. But I’d also love to give her any information I can, it’s of great sentimental value to her. Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Laurie

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2 hours ago, Spectron said:

Hello everyone, I’m new to the forum but my name is Laurie from LA and I was hoping for some help identifying this unbranded movement. I’m very new to watch repair but my good friend recently inherited a non-working pocket watch from her grandpa and I offered to take a look. It’s pretty grimy but the balance seems fine so I’m hopeful it just needs a routine service. Her grandpa lived in the north of France (Ardres) and I’m assuming it’s Swiss. There are no words on the movement and the only thing on the case is  “Ancre Ligne Droite ”, which, as I understand, seems to describe the style of escapement but doesn’t necessarily point to a specific brand. There’s also a number and mark that seems purposeful but also doesn’t look like anything.

I’m hoping to identify the movement mostly because I already bent the pivot of the center wheel while taking off the cannon pinion (I don’t have a proper remover yet) so I figured if I have more information about the movement I could find a donor movement more easily. Or in the event something else goes wrong. But I’d also love to give her any information I can, it’s of great sentimental value to her. Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Laurie

IMG_6067.jpeg

IMG_5970.jpeg

IMG_5955.jpeg

IMG_5957.jpeg

IMG_5961.jpeg

IMG_5962.jpeg

IMG_5964.jpeg

The mark on the case may only relate to the case. The movement, case and dial also can potentially have three seperate makers. Some evidence of the movement maker may be found while disassembling. Under the balance wheel is common in more recent wristwatches, under the dial can be a favourite place on pocket watches.

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3 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

The mark on the case may only relate to the case. The movement, case and dial also can potentially have three seperate makers. Some evidence of the movement maker may be found while disassembling. Under the balance wheel is common in more recent wristwatches, under the dial can be a favourite place on pocket watches.

I did find another number on the bottom plate after disassembly, which I'm guessing is the serial number and does match the number on the case. But no names. I included a picture of one tiny little symbol which doesn't seem like much, but who knows.

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I found this info for you. It is a swiss movement.

The term Ancre Ligne Droite had a specific meaning. The Swiss styel lever was emerging as a standard form in the 1860-1880 time frame. It mean that the three pivots, escape wheel pallet lever and balance were in a straight line. The English style had the three pivots in a triangular lay out.

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7 hours ago, Spectron said:

I did find another number on the bottom plate after disassembly, which I'm guessing is the serial number and does match the number on the case. But no names. I included a picture of one tiny little symbol which doesn't seem like much, but who knows.

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The serial numbers match between the case and main plate, so at least the case and movement where originally made for each other. Unsure as to why the mainplate was marked twice with the same number, maybe because one number was obscured. I think all you have to go on at the moment is the worn symbol on the inside of the case if it is anything at all.

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Edited by Neverenoughwatches
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I'd say this is a very early pin-set, maybe mid-to-late 1860s.  Looking at the pendant tube, it is still round like it would be on a key-wind case.  But I do not think this was a converted case, because they also would have needed to drill for the setting pin, and the cuvette has no key holes.  The style being reminiscent of key-winds makes me think this may be from that early transitional period.  And the movement looks right for that time.  But being unmarked, likely a generic ebauche (maybe A. Schild or FHF or such like) that is as much as I can guess about it.

Edited by KarlvonKoln
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On 5/14/2023 at 8:13 AM, KarlvonKoln said:

I'd say this is a very early pin-set, maybe mid-to-late 1860s.  Looking at the pendant tube, it is still round like it would be on a key-wind case.  But I do not think this was a converted case, because they also would have needed to drill for the setting pin, and the cuvette has no key holes.  The style being reminiscent of key-winds makes me think this may be from that early transitional period.  And the movement looks right for that time.  But being unmarked, likely a generic ebauche (maybe A. Schild or FHF or such like) that is as much as I can guess about it.

Thank you, this is great!

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On 5/12/2023 at 1:25 PM, Spectron said:

I’m very new to watch repair but my good friend

unfortunately new to watch repair means that there are certain lessons you haven't learned yet. important lessons that will keep your friends your friends

 

On 5/12/2023 at 1:25 PM, Spectron said:

it’s of great sentimental value to her

one of the ways I like to think about watch repair is similar to learning to become a doctor. Initially studying reading and a lot of practicing. oh and everyone on this group is still practicing the same as doctors are still practicing every single watch you do you will get better hopefully. For instance suppose we decided to take up brain surgery and we get a book and I wonder how well it's going to work out for us. What happens when the patient dies would anyone be upset. What happens to this watch if it has a similar outcome? typically doctors or take up surgery get the practice on dead people they don't have to worry about the patient dying. But what happens this watch if it dies we you still have a friend?

 

On 5/12/2023 at 1:25 PM, Spectron said:

I already bent the pivot of the center wheel while taking off the cannon pinion (I don’t have a proper remover yet)

thinking of vintage I really wish you'd taken a picture some better pictures did you notice that the cannon pinion was really really hard to take off and no having a remover would not help. I can give you pictures of what you have but I'm not going to yet I need a picture of the cannon pinion. Does it look like your normal one or does it look a little different did it require a heck of a lot of force to come off and I need a picture the bent part. If I'm right you won't need a new center will but I'm really keep you in suspense until I get my pictures. On the other hand I might be wrong he might use center wheel but I don't think so.

 

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15 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

unfortunately new to watch repair means that there are certain lessons you haven't learned yet. important lessons that will keep your friends your friends

 

one of the ways I like to think about watch repair is similar to learning to become a doctor. Initially studying reading and a lot of practicing. oh and everyone on this group is still practicing the same as doctors are still practicing every single watch you do you will get better hopefully. For instance suppose we decided to take up brain surgery and we get a book and I wonder how well it's going to work out for us. What happens when the patient dies would anyone be upset. What happens to this watch if it has a similar outcome? typically doctors or take up surgery get the practice on dead people they don't have to worry about the patient dying. But what happens this watch if it dies we you still have a friend?

 

thinking of vintage I really wish you'd taken a picture some better pictures did you notice that the cannon pinion was really really hard to take off and no having a remover would not help. I can give you pictures of what you have but I'm not going to yet I need a picture of the cannon pinion. Does it look like your normal one or does it look a little different did it require a heck of a lot of force to come off and I need a picture the bent part. If I'm right you won't need a new center will but I'm really keep you in suspense until I get my pictures. On the other hand I might be wrong he might use center wheel but I don't think so.

 

Well ACTUALLY, turns out the center wheel/cannon pinion is held together with the tapered pin, which I eventually learned after trying to figure out why the center wheel wouldn't detach from its bridge. I knocked the pin out and the wheel and cannon pinion seem fine; the pin itself is just slightly bent (see picture), so I'm optimistic I can hopefully get it straightened with some light tapping? It also seems like a relatively easy thing to replace since the dimension are so straight-forward, but after some searching online I realized I have no idea what to even search for so maybe not so simple to replace. I welcome any suggestions!

As for my friend, these are wise words! Though the watch didn't work before and I don't think she was ever going to get it serviced, so I figure there's not too much to lose 😄

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2 hours ago, Spectron said:

Well ACTUALLY, turns out the center wheel/cannon pinion is held together with the tapered pin, which I eventually learned after trying to figure out why the center wheel wouldn't detach from its bridge. I knocked the pin out and the wheel and cannon pinion seem fine; the pin itself is just slightly bent (see picture), so I'm optimistic I can hopefully get it straightened with some light tapping? It also seems like a relatively easy thing to replace since the dimension are so straight-forward, but after some searching online I realized I have no idea what to even search for so maybe not so simple to replace. I welcome any suggestions!

to understand what you're dealing with I have images snipped out of a book.

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it was a little bit older it would've been much easier to spot. Because the early ones would been key  set and it becomes quite obvious that things don't quite look right well sort of usually if I see anyone struggling with I can't take the cannon pinion off especially in older watch then this is usually the problem and yes when you look at the other side it would've been nice for more pictures but yes you can recognize the style even without seeing everything. But a lot of times people would ask ahead of time if things don't seem right.

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9 hours ago, Spectron said:

I can hopefully get it straightened with some light tapping?

Don't straighten the pin, the bend is intentional.

The friction between the bent pin and the inside of the center wheel arbor is what provides the coupling friction for the train to turn the hands. On this type of movement the canon pinion and the pin rotate together. If you straighten out the pin you will uncouple the hands from the movement and they won't turn.

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7 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

what book is that from?  I only ask as I am trying to build my library and knowing where things like this come from helps.

go to eBay and search for this name jendritzki. Currently is producing quite an amusing list of prices. Or you can go to the link below lots of nice books

then the book that that image came from is called  The Swiss Watch Repairer's Manual you will note when you're looking at eBay it came in a variety of additions ideally the older edition is nicer. As the additions get new war they drop out a lot of the stuff in the past like how to make a stem or just drop out things for modern parts replacing versus may be having to make stuff. So the older volume is more desirable like at the second link.

https://www.booksimonin.ch/shop_en.php?recherche=jendritzki&bouton_rechercher.x=20&bouton_rechercher.y=2#corps

https://www.ebay.com/itm/155555894466

 

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Wow... what's with the insane prices on old books.   Thanks for the info though.  I almost thought it was a PDF that you had as it was so clean looking in the image.

Is JENDRITZKI's book similar to say Fried's book or some of the other older ones?  I was really hoping the JENDRITZKI book would be on archive.org, like some other older ones that you can borrow when you need to, but no such luck.

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39 minutes ago, kd8tzc said:

JENDRITZKI's book similar to say Fried's book or some of the other older ones? 

simplistically one of them is Swiss training manual for watchmakers in a way and Henry is for the American watchmakers. Not sure my dictation spelled Henry's name bright. I don't think is really get excited he's no longer with us. he was a very interesting person to have conversations with as I met him on several occasions. Basically what happens with books you can't have enough of them one book will have something a little better or different than another book. Which probably explains why looking across the room I have a sizable collection of books.

50 minutes ago, kd8tzc said:

I almost thought it was a PDF that you had as it was so clean looking in the image.

one of the problems with books are there physical PDFs are ideal but getting a physical book to the PDF can be an interesting challenge you would have to slice the binding off find somebody with an industrial scanner and in doing so would it violate a copy right? Typically the PDFs that are out in the wild no longer have a copyright. I think technically even scanning sections of the book in may be a violation a copyright but we won't tell anybody.

42 minutes ago, kd8tzc said:

I was really hoping the JENDRITZKI book would be on archive.org, like some other older ones that you can borrow when you need to, but no such luck.

now interesting links below notice the first link the owner the book company is a teacher. He's basically the person who put wostep on the map. Then I also had him as a teacher. He loves books which is where some of my books came from. In a case that first paragraph on the first link he discovers that books are available he secures permission and republishes them and I'm sure in doing so he secures a copyright.

Then next link look at all the books he publishes. Which is why the Swiss watch repair manual is not available as a PDF because it's copyrighted by him as he's republished it

https://www.booksimonin.ch/our-history.php#corps

https://www.booksimonin.ch/simonin-publishing.php#corps

 

 

56 minutes ago, kd8tzc said:

Wow... what's with the insane prices on old books.

often times I noticed with eBay and Amazon people have totally insane prices for books and for that matter all sorts of other things. For whatever reason I think it's rare scarce maybe they're hoping you'll make a deal bull market of thousand dollars and you offer them 100 you getting a great deal and you still getting ripped off.

The problem is it's hard to find a lot of horological books. There's got out of print or the limited printings so obtaining them is very difficult. Then some books just are expensive. Oh and if you order from Switzerland somebody else in the group ordered a book and it was heavy and it came by airmail I believe it took less than a week to arrive and should have been printed on gold because was really expensive for the shipping suggest bear that in mind if you order a lot of books from Switzerland this is where if you keep an eye on eBay they'll show up there sooner or later sometimes it really good prices which is usually where I'm getting my books from now.

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yes always good to check eBay for wet stuff really sells for versus what people think they would get for it. Then you could set up a search with the parameters of what you're looking for within the price range and sit back and wait sooner or later they will appear. Then basically all of those books are good for timing adjustment is very good if you're into precision timing and want to know everything that affects timing.

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