Seiko 4006-6040 Alarm Spring

[ltlsoandso]

Hi all,

Having taken my first watch apart to hopefully give it a full service, I have managed to break the mainspring whilst trying to manually re-insert and also broken the alarm spring whilst measuring it.  Just trying to gain some experience...  Still they were going to be replaced anyway together with the barrel etc.  So I have I think managed to find a mainspring and barrel on cousins website but I am having great difficulty locating an alarm spring.

GR2378X 0.95 x .12 x 400 x 10.5 Automatic Mainspring 

SEI205805 Barrel Complete With Arbor, Seiko 205.805 - does this also have a mainspring already fitted?

I have spent literally hours trying to make sense of it all - I think searching for parts is more stressful then worrying about getting the watch back together, whether it will work or not.  Had this watch from 74 - last serviced 83 and it's been a good friend - until I dropped it...

So could someone please point me at the correct cousins reference for this spring - then I can start to worry about the cost of Winders...

Cheers eversomuch

 

[rossjackson01]

This any good for information?

https://seikoserviceusa.com/uploads/datasheets/4006A.pdf

Seems to show part 416805 as the spring you require.

Edited May 10, 2023 by rossjackson01

[mikepilk]

That's quite ambitious to do a 4006 as your first watch, lots of levers and springs. 
As it sounds like a cherished watch, and it's your first service, I would personally get experience servicing simpler movements before having a go at this one. I waited until I'd serviced quite a lot until I moved on to alarm watches.

Here's the service guide (the notes in yellow are mine) 4006A.pdf

The Seiko part number for the alarm spring is 416805. If you can't find one, the best (and cheapest) option is the measure the existing one. You only need the height and thickness accurately. The length doesn't need to be exact - just your best estimate will do.

Anything sold  "Barrel Complete" should have the mainspring installed.

Finding parts is usually not difficult, once you figure out where, and how, to look - You found Cousins, but I find the Jules Borel database very useful - it tells you which parts are common to other movements : http://cgi.julesborel.com/?_ga=2.99547678.1292671413.1673701735-126716363.1672876102

For general reference on movements Ranfft is useful http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&&2uswk&Seiko_4006A

Also you can find technical manuals on Cousins, and places like https://watchguy.co.uk/cgi-bin/files

Some of the fiddly bits :

 

 

 

Edited May 10, 2023 by mikepilk

[ltlsoandso]

19 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

This any good for information?

https://seikoserviceusa.com/uploads/datasheets/4006A.pdf

Seems to show part 416805 as the spring you require.

Thanks, I have that pdf. - its finding an alternative that is the issue for me - still it's all part of my learning curve.  Thanks again.

[JohnR725]

20 hours ago, ltlsoandso said:

GR2378X 0.95 x .12 x 400 x 10.5 Automatic Mainspring 

good someone beat me to this in the case of watches like Seiko he typically wouldn't go for generic replacement unless you can't get the Seiko. This is where it's really nice to have the service manual.

18 hours ago, mikepilk said:

Here's the service guide (the notes in yellow are mine) 4006A.pdf

 

18 hours ago, mikepilk said:

That's quite ambitious to do a 4006 as your first watch, lots of levers and springs. 
As it sounds like a cherished watch, and it's your first service, I would personally get experience servicing simpler movements before having a go at this one. I waited until I'd serviced quite a lot until I moved on to alarm watches.

what's interesting of watch repair is the assumption that it's easy that anybody can do it no skills required. We could try to explain that to people but sometimes painful lessons are better. so it would've been preferred to come to the group with I have this watch what are your recommendations and we were recommended waiting. You can still set it aside or you can continue with your lesson. The problem is watch repair is an ongoing learning experience everybody on this group is still learning still practicing and still getting better.

here's an interesting website at the link below so are looking for a very specific section you can go to Seiko and the defined 4600 which brings up an interesting problem there is two of them? Shouldn't really matter because there's only one service guide's Olympic the first one and that will be the second link but even though I'm giving you the second link white and should look at the website and just pay attention to what's there to really nice site for looking up parts possibility of getting parts of another part of the website more important getting part numbers and even more important getting cross references to other watches that are using the same parts. Unfortunately for the alarm watch a sizable percentage the parts will only be unique to that watch like the alarm mainspring only go in that watch.

as expected the alarm spring is only found in three watches and of course it's been discontinued. That doesn't mean it's not available for instance almost everything will show up on eBay sooner or later. It just means worst-case you might have to purchase another movement to get parts from.

http://cgi.julesborel.com/

http://cgi.julesborel.com/cgi-bin/matcgi2?ref=SEK_4006A_17J

then once you have part numbers you can come to this link and see if they're available. Sometimes though the site doesn't like the part numbers that you have from their other site I don't always understand ounces sometimes they just will come up at all.

http://www.julesborel.com/

so for instance the Seiko mainspring number comes up as blank. Fortunately somewhere else in the world they might have one watch repair is also about being patient in waiting for parts to come usually on eBay sooner layer they all show up we just need to live long enough.then of course the other mainspring number they gave it doesn't show up either but still it's a good site for cross-references.

 

 

 

[ltlsoandso]

18 hours ago, mikepilk said:

That's quite ambitious to do a 4006 as your first watch, lots of levers and springs. 
As it sounds like a cherished watch, and it's your first service, I would personally get experience servicing simpler movements before having a go at this one. I waited until I'd serviced quite a lot until I moved on to alarm watches.

Here's the service guide (the notes in yellow are mine) 4006A.pdf

The Seiko part number for the alarm spring is 416805. If you can't find one, the best (and cheapest) option is the measure the existing one. You only need the height and thickness accurately. The length doesn't need to be exact - just your best estimate will do.

Anything sold  "Barrel Complete" should have the mainspring installed.

Finding parts is usually not difficult, once you figure out where, and how, to look - You found Cousins, but I find the Jules Borel database very useful - it tells you which parts are common to other movements : http://cgi.julesborel.com/?_ga=2.99547678.1292671413.1673701735-126716363.1672876102

For general reference on movements Ranfft is useful http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&&2uswk&Seiko_4006A

Also you can find technical manuals on Cousins, and places like https://watchguy.co.uk/cgi-bin/files

Some of the fiddly bits :

 

 

 

Thanks for all the info - have to get stuck in again today.  Yes in hindsight I should have tried a simpler watch - but it came apart quite easily............ and all the videos were so so give it a go...........

Think I have identified an alternative so it can only get better.  Thanks again for your help - photo is very inspiring......

[mikepilk]

59 minutes ago, ltlsoandso said:

 but it came apart quite easily............

Yes, they usually come apart quite easily. It's the putting back together so that they work properly is the tricky bit.

[rossjackson01]

4 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

what's interesting of watch repair is the assumption that it's easy that anybody can do it no skills required. We could try to explain that to people but sometimes painful lessons are better. so it would've been preferred to come to the group with I have this watch what are your recommendations and we were recommended waiting. You can still set it aside or you can continue with your lesson. The problem is watch repair is an ongoing learning experience everybody on this group is still learning still practicing and still getting better. 

 

 

 

I have to agree whole heartedly with John and others comments.

Been down that road. Paid the price.

I'm now 19 month into the hobby. Could I do what you are going to do? Maybe, but it would be a heck of a struggle. I can disassemble, clean and reassemble. I now have a certain amount of expertise. Could I have done it in my first 6 month? First to admit it. No. Please take care.

Please continue to read beyond this part.

When I first started I was swayed by YouTube (I've started only two weeks ago) fibbers. Looking back on their tweezer skill, it is obvious they had many months, and a lot of money behind them judging by the tools they used. 

When I came to put the balance and escapement back together, as I did not have the light touch, I had to purchase new balances, and escarpments (yes, plurals) as a result of being so naïve. Learning to oil also caused problems. You'd be surprised what is the difference now between my oiling. Think barrel and thimble. 

Taking apart is easy.  It is so cheap

Reassemble is hard and expensive.

I can now watch a YouTube video and understand why they do something a certain way and what will be the outcome. I can see the problems and know how they need to be fixed.  

I'm still learning. I am at the stage where I am attempting to perfect skills that need to be at a certain level.  Mainspring installation and Hairspring adjusting. I need these, as to service my own watch is a dream for me. What I don't need is a nightmare. I bought my watch in 1966 for £23.50. It is now worth £1,750+. 

Everything I learn, and probably you, will be learned visually from the internet. I've learned by physical mistakes. You will learn what a 'Ping' is. Hold the tweezer too tight (I'm sure I was holding something). 

This is a great hobby. Very rewarding and satisfying.

Without listening to the members, I would not have many of the skill I have now. Can I hold my own against a professional? Let's not be silly. Can I provide a professional standard? I'm getting there.

Hope the above comments can help you. They are information, not requisites.

Ross

Edited May 11, 2023 by rossjackson01
Spelling, Grammar

[JohnR725]

7 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

swayed by YouTube

YouTube is a very interesting place for learning watch repair. Even the people that are trying not to? Even the people are trying to show things as they really are become experienced with time. So you never really got a get a video of just like you of this is my first watch and did I just hear something fly away? Did something just fall on the floor you're not going to see that with any of those videos even though their trying some of them hard to be just like you basically that's only a first time thing. As they do more and more watches they get more and more experienced they forget what it was like the start. Then a course whatever they're photographing with I know somebody who's doing a channel and he sends three videos that well what I'm looking at something really really really big on the screen that's not the way it really looks suddenly things look much much worse because it's so darn big and it really isn't. So a lot of the imagery is misleading their hand eye coordination that had lots of practice the really good and yes the screws are really really tiny. That's one of the ones I've heard several times on the group when people realize those screws are really tiny

7 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

You will learn what a 'Ping' is. Hold the tweezer too tight (I'm sure I was holding something). 

sometimes it's also the shape and style of tweezers a lot of tweezers really aren't suitable for watch repair. As important as listening for the sound of escaping parts the next really important thing is when the part escapes where did it land? This is one of the things I hate about the current location that were in the floor doesn't really make a sound when stuff hits it nasty pretty big to make a sound plus the color choice of gray really sucks. But will supposedly be moving and yes the color gray oh raise its ugly head and hope for the floors little better for hearing when things hit it. Previously the shop was in a location with a what look like hardwood floor so parts made a really nice sound when they hit much easier to find if you have a clue of where you're going.

7 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

Can I provide a professional standard?

I'm not sure you want to have professional standards? One of today's fun providing it wasn't already done is regulate to pocket watches that came in. They don't want them serviced and one of them was recently serviced by a shop I would assume that makes the person a professional. That particular watch I Hamilton 992 has the regulator all the way at the extreme which is never were I would put it and? Initially yesterday my boss was looking at them and asked the question I said no not usually but I was wrong as a guess. He asked if this was the effect of a set mainspring even though the watch had been serviced normally with a set mainspring and little fresh oil you can do pre-timing for at least an hour or two before it starts really losing power but this thing out a dramatic power loss within five minutes. So before I went I sent them both the time did a print out of the timing results and ill be a miracle if that watches even running today. So don't try to emulate the professionals some of them really suck just try to do the best you can and try to get better at it.

[rossjackson01]

14 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

So don't try to emulate the professionals some of them really suck just try to do the best you can and try to get better at it.

I think that is what I was trying to say, but did not realise how I meant to say it. Thank you.

Just love this forum.

Ross

[Nucejoe]

 The right spring for alarm is nice to get your hands on, but not an exacting requiredness as its not involved with timekeeping, that is: as long as it fits the rest is matter of your liking, how strong it sounds or how long it rings..... etc. 

A scrap spring out of another caliber might be stronger and sound louder, there is also an upper limit to its strength , if too strong the alarm mech might lock up.

[ltlsoandso]

Thanks for everyone's input, it's refreshing to find so many people willing to offer help and advice so readily.

So, the parts arrived from Cousins:

SEI205805 Seiko 205.805 Complete Barrel with Arbor - Not really sure what I have here.  I can't find a definitive description of whether it has a mainspring already fitted or not.  I have tried to open it but no luck yet - the original opened quite easily following normal guidelines.  Is there a simple way of establishing whether there is a mainspring inside the barrel other than fitting it, only to wind thin air.  It would seem silly to sell a closed, empty barrel.

GR2378X GR Automatic Mainspring 0.95 x .12 x 400 x 10.5 - Spare in case of no mainspring in the Barrel....

GR40781 GR Non-Automatic Mainspring 1.35 x .08 x 310 x 7.5 - To replace the original Alarm Spring....

Hope I'm not winding anyone up by posting again here - only want to wind up the Mainspring if there is one....

[Nucejoe]

6 minutes ago, ltlsoandso said:

  Is there a simple way of establishing whether there is a mainspring inside the barrel other than fitting it, only to wind thin air.  It would seem silly to sell a closed, empty barrel.

 You kinda answered your question, thin air is easier to turn compared to any mainspring , I just feel how easy the arbour turns. 

Rgds

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, ltlsoandso said:

I have tried to open it but no luck yet

opening isn't the problem putting it back in is.

1 hour ago, ltlsoandso said:

only want to wind up the Mainspring if there is one.

 

1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

You kinda answered your question, thin air is easier to turn compared to any mainspring , I just feel how easy the arbour turns.

you should be able to rotate the arbor either with the pin vice or just told the ratchet wheel against the arbor. You don't have to put the whole watch together and just gently turn it if you feel resistance there is a mainspring. Typically it's a modern Seiko or most modern Swiss now it's a barrel complete as there are no separate mainsprings

[ltlsoandso]

So, update on my first "have a Go".  The mainspring barrel was devoid of mainspring so I had to open it and in so doing destroyed the barrel by trying to open the lid at the wrong end (where there was no lid).  Feel really stupid, having previously opened a barrel successfully.  I then proceed to rebuild the watch, pinging bits here and there but luckily not losing anything as yet.   Then find that the Escape Wheel & Pinion is minus the pointy bit at the top so all is not well.  Then when removing the Barrel and Train Wheel Bridge to recheck the other wheels I forgot to remove the Alarm screw and released the Alarm Mainspring and some other bits in all its fury...  Managed to reload the Alarm mainspring successfully - if not quite in the correct orientation.  But I carry on regardless learning by trial and lots of error.  Hopefully I have made someone smile and that's a big thing in the current climate.  So my question for today is "The Escape Wheel and Pinion - Seiko 251.805" the only fit for this watch (4006-6040) or is there another part number that can be used as an alternative?

Cheers...

[Nucejoe]

54 minutes ago, ltlsoandso said:

  So my question for today is "The Escape Wheel and Pinion - Seiko 251.805" the only fit for this watch (4006-6040) or is there another part number that can be used as an alternative?

 Hardly anyone can remember what all interchanges.

I usually go to julesborel site or Dr ranfft, balancestaffs.com and a few other sites when searching for interchangable parts.

CousinesUK is widely used by members here, thats if you manage to navigate the site and get out alive.  

 

 

 

 

[mikepilk]

1 hour ago, ltlsoandso said:

 so doing destroyed the barrel by trying to open the lid at the wrong end (where there was no lid).

  I then proceed to rebuild the watch, pinging bits here and there 

Then find that the Escape Wheel & Pinion is minus the pointy bit at the top so all is not well. 

 

You are discovering what we have been trying to tell you all along - it may look easy in videos, but in practice - you need practice !

If you don't mind the (highly likely) chance of wrecking it, carry on. But if you care about the watch and wish to save it - put it aside until you can improve your skills.

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, mikepilk said:

You are discovering what we have been trying to tell you all along - it may look easy in videos, but in practice - you need practice !

If you don't mind the (highly likely) chance of wrecking it, carry on. But if you care about the watch and wish to save it - put it aside until you can improve your skills.

definitely do not listen to this. Sometimes painful lessons are needed and it looks like in your case a little more pain is needed.

this is one of the complaints or comments that a lot of people will say is when you watch the videos they make it look so easy. Even before the videos there's always been assumption that no real skills are needed for watch repair. But that's fine if you're working on watches were parts are readily available when you're working on something where parts are getting harder to find this becomes a big issue or an expensive issue.

5 hours ago, ltlsoandso said:

The mainspring barrel was devoid of mainspring so I had to open it and in so doing destroyed the barrel by trying to open the lid at the wrong end (where there was no lid).  Feel really stupid, having previously opened a barrel

this is where this is a group of people that are helpful pictures then we can help you. Then this is watch repair you're going to run into lots and lots and lots of variations. So just because your successful with one watch doesn't guarantee success with another at least not right away.

5 hours ago, ltlsoandso said:

Then find that the Escape Wheel & Pinion is minus the pointy bit at the top so all is not well

yes they like to go missing. This is where starting with a Chinese clone of the 6497 works good. Practicing practicing until you're better at things. Starting with a running watches nice because when you're all through if it's not running well I wonder why? Versus starting with a watch that needs repair where it's probably just a defective escape wheel versus unfortunately we've all been there. Pivots that mysteriously falloff escape wheel pivots pallet fork pivots are quite common that they just fall off all by themselves.

5 hours ago, ltlsoandso said:

But I carry on regardless learning by trial and lots of error.  Hopefully I have made someone smile and that's a big thing in the current climate. 

trial and error works fine as long as you are learning? 

5 hours ago, ltlsoandso said:

So my question for today is "The Escape Wheel and Pinion - Seiko 251.805" the only fit for this watch (4006-6040) or is there another part number that can be used as an alternative?

according to the parts list down below the escape wheel only works in that watch. Plus as expected because it's basically a vintage Seiko it has been discontinued. A lot of times when you go to the list of discontinued parts those the ones that have a habit of having issues like pivots falling off for instance.

this is where eBay is your friend.. you want to start looking for watches complete watches preferably running. There a good source for repair components when they can't be purchased in any other way.

http://cgi.julesborel.com/cgi-bin/matcgi2?ref=SEK_4006A_17J

 

 

[Nucejoe]

 Nothing wrong with putting  your Seiko alarm aside and get you an easier to work on piece?  not expensive not rare,  a simple manual wind with no complication will do.   You will acquire more skill as you go , put the Seiko on bench when you feel you r ready to attack. 

Just a thought.

[SteelClouds]

Dont feel bad. I started with an Elgin size 0 pocket watch and then went to a Seiko 4006-7040. I'm on my 3rd 4006 now with 3 more on the bench in various stages of repair/reassembly. I added a few more Elgins and Hamiltons along the way in the past 6 months. The 4006 will take several tries at it to get it right. 99% of the videos miss a step or two or three so its watch every one you can find and make notes with some crude drawings. I also picked up some trashed movements and video'ed taking them apart for reference. They made good spares as it turns out. Parts for the 4006 are nigh available so a stash of parts movement is invaluable if you plan to do more than one. I also buy 4006 "junk piles" if they have some key parts. My current favorite 4006-4080 was quite the adventure.. had to make the braclet from 3 broken ones. Part of which was gold plated that I had to strip off. I had to drill out the old pins from the lug because they were rusted in place. New springs.. serious cleaning because it was swimming in oil. Replacement day wheel.. replacement hands ( all used) Ping me if you have questions about the movement..