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Oils to start my kit with ....advice appreciated


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2 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

Everyone take a deep breath.... talking about oil's is like talking about religion, politics or someone's Mom.... 🙂

 

I don't do religion or politics and if someone was trash talking my mum SHE would break their nose 😅 . That then leaves more time for me to repair watches or talk about watch oils 🙂

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TL;DR but I guess WD40 isn't any good 😛

Why do these very expensive oils have a 'use by' date? If it's kept sealed and at a sensible temp (i.e. room and not on top the boiler etc) why does it degrade? Does that mean every watch serviced with new dated oils needs a service after a few years in case the oil turns to acid or glue?

Edited by p2n
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Probably the manufacturers have tested their products after x years in storage, and found the properties to be identical or similar within acceptable tolerances to the fresh material. Date of manufacture plus x is then the use by date. X needs to be a number of years, as even watch manufacturers and professional repair shops and their delivery chains need to keep stocks for a length of time, so wouldn't buy the oil otherwise. Testing costs the lubrication manufacturers money, so they only do it once if the results are good. They haven't tested after longer storage periods (and have no incentive to do so), so they will not make any claims about the quality, good or bad, beyond the use by date. They won't say the oil deteriorates. That wouldn't do their image any good. Maybe it doesn't, but they have no reason to find out or give any guarantees. It's common industrial practice and makes commercial sense.

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3 hours ago, p2n said:

I guess WD40 isn't any good

not necessarily as long as is not made by the Swiss and it's inexpensive and preferably doesn't have an expiring date it's perfect. 

3 hours ago, p2n said:

If it's kept sealed and at a sensible temp (i.e. room and not on top the boiler etc) why does it degrade? Does that mean every watch serviced with new dated oils needs a service after a few years in case the oil turns to acid or glue?

one of the biggest problems with lubrication is the lack of companies explaining why they do anything why they change their lubrication from time to time why they make a recommendation why there's expiring dates but that's come up in discussions. It also depends on type of lubrication as to how important the date is. So realistically all lubrication's could go bad over time. Oils that have organic compounds are more likely to go bad with time. If one bottle it's been sitting in the warehouse is 10 years old and another bottle is brand-new and they look identical which would you prefer to purchase especially if it had something organic?

For the watch companies the other thing they're concerned about is each time you extract the oil you are putting contamination in the bottle so that's a concern. This is why Rolex supplies their lubrication in syringes so it won't be a problem. 

basically all lubricants can do just about anything but classically from what I've seen the older organics get sticky. That's actually a desirable characteristic over time. Because synthetic's do something different. Unfortunately most of the watches I repaired over time have gone away other people have them. so if you look at early synthetic vacation advertising of course they're comparing to organic. Which means basically the perfect the last forever and they don't spread and compared to organic oils that would all be correct to a certain degree. That would assume that you get your watch service on a regular interval. So on watches that I've service that I still have I noticed and 9010 was always gone abducted by aliens it just wasn't there anymore. The 9020 and I'm currently thinking of the oldest watch I ever serviced was a Rolex watch I kept it for 20+ years before servicing it when I got my newfangled modern and expenses Swiss timing machine. Yes rumor has it everything is expensive in Switzerland. So when I go to service my Rolex no 9010 but 9020 is still there visually it looks fine. The PML stem grease which I used up until relatively recently visually absolutely perfect. So perfect that I remember looking at it and thinking it to my reassembling this watch did I just apply it. But this watch only came out into the world a couple of times a year not entirely a fair test versus a watch running every single day or somebody hand winding it every single day.

Oh other problems with our discussion on lubrication and its life. Missing information a lot of the companies about pic on a magnetic as I have more literature of the heirs have documentation in addition moving service guides they have the other documentation. So even in the cleaning lubrication guide I have of late 50s it talks about epilam basically the entire watch. So what if I don't use epilam which typically I don't will that affect the spreading of a thin oil like 9010 and of course it will. Oh and we look and manufactures information sheets you find that they do treat the balance staff which they also said in the early Omega guide. Along with the balance jewels retreated when they were manufactured which is why 9010 is supposed to stay word is because epilam keeps it there but if you're following the service guide like I was well there's no epilam I wonder if that's a problem?

oh and why is getting sticky good it's action extremely desirable characteristic for variety of reasons. If you can program your lubrication to stop functioning and stop the watch in seven years it would guarantee that your customer would return and the watch we just need cleaning unless a course the gaskets disintegrated early moisture got in well then it's going to be way more expensive. That's the other probably gaskets can disintegrate with time and let moisture in. What happens to a watch that runs with no lubrication? Metal on metal bearings you think they would wear out without the lubrication is there any way of telling that their disintegrating until the watch stops? If organic oils get sticky the watch stops it's probably going to be just cleaning if the synthetics are no longer doing their job. This is also why a lot of the watch companies in the service centers just replace lots of stuff they can go to much much longer service intervals and will just replace things we don't necessarily have the luxury.

oh how to save money do not purchase Swiss oils do not purchase oils with expiring dates. Ask questions on this discussion group I get the link below and I was trying to embrace the theme of the group with the advice I gave as opposed to well I actually still think it be an interesting experiment and I don't think he's doing this for money so if it doesn't work ill be just fine. But it does bring up a problem of what if you don't have expiring dates. If you Google the name of the lubrication I found lots of pictures of those bottles that look much much newer than his but I happen to know the much newer bottles look entirely different those are older the oldest would have a cork.

https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/26505-w-f-nye-oil/#comment-219998

5 hours ago, Klassiker said:

Probably the manufacturers have tested their products after x years in storage

yes like anything else in the world especially with lawsuits. You realistically have to have a date of how long something may last. If you guaranteed your product for ever that could be quite interesting. Although I once did warranty work for a company that had a watch that was supposed to last for ever. So one third of them failed but forever is a very long time and it could be very very expensive if you don't have a timeframe. By Somebody purchases your oil and oils that are clocks which I had seen an article with D5 were somebody said one bottle for an entire month worth of production they all came back. So could you sue the manufacturer if there's no date for bad lubrication. Without it dates maybe it been sitting in the warehouse for the last 20 years whose fault is it.

image.png.6f3128fd638ad3b515faa3188116ee8b.png

then the cost of lubrication versus anything else in watch repair you take the cost you paid divided by the number of years even if you're being conservative in the cost per year if that's upsetting you you shouldn't be in watch repair. Verse is what if you want to buy an entire set of mainspring winders. Or maybe want to do vintage repair and you want to buy a lathe or all sorts a really interesting specialty tools that maybe haven't been cloned by the Chinese. So you want to complain about the cost of something no idea what this costs. I noticed it was getting the advertisement up above yes it does have a trade name just not on the advertisement may be that came later. It's actually as far as I know on almost all the watches today they still use it. Ill see references to it in the manufacturer's information or some technical guides.

Then the item in the picture used to be found in the BERGEON catalog at least it was in my catalog. Unfortunately no price and I bet you this is expensive for one thing that's a really big spray can plus I always wondered if they purchased the spray can at the hardware store except I don't think they did. There supposed to be 9010 in there with the dry lubricants based on the cost of the little bottle that's probably like $1 billion. But if having escapement lubrication issues here is your solution. Plus it's perfect to complain about the high cost of lubrication

 

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On 5/12/2023 at 12:11 PM, Endeavor said:

I'm using (and this is not a recommendation, it's just what I ended up with using) ABRO #3 (LG-990) synthetic high pressure Lithium grease, good for in marine environment, temperature range -40 to 500˚F, corrosion resistant, maintains viscosity across full temperature range; gear-boxes etc etc etc.

Just catching up (again) where are you using this grease? On the barrel walls of the mainspring barrel or the mainspring itself, or anywhere in the watch like the keyless works etc... or all of the above?

Edited by Waggy
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