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7 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

How would increasing the size of the mainspring's slot be.

I don't think the size of the hole is necessarily the problem because the modern winder handles tend to be really tiny. The problem is the curvature is really critical severe handle was a little too small it just isn't going to catch. That's were on the older style of handles the protruding book is very aggressive because the blued steel Springs tended to be not formed is nicely

30 minutes ago, kd8tzc said:

Possibly I think I am doing it right, but you will spot a mistake.

shouldn't be an issue with the modern Springs versus my American pocket watch springs. In the case of the American pocket watch springs the center part tends to be all different sizes. So you getting at the hook on my winder can be an issue. So typically I put it the spring on the handle. Put the thing into the wider itself and start to turn hoping it would catch. Sometimes a push in a little spring may be a bit I will better position and if I'm lucky of catches. It just depends on the sizing of things. Because my case my pocket watch Winder I only have two sizes. Now this is a key aspect once you start winding don't stop. Often times if you stop it might unhook itself so once you have winding you continue until the end. It should be less of a problem with the modern handle on a modern spring work looks perfectly every time but usually best once your winding you finish the task.

 

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17 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

It should be less of a problem with the modern handle on a modern spring work looks perfectly every time but usually best once your winding you finish the task.

 Okay, well it is a modern winder on an OLD spring though.  I'll get some pictures.

Well this is interesting... I just tried it and I was able to keep it hooked (pictures to come), BUT... then I couldn't get any more of it in the winder.  I took a look at the winder and I have a size 5, not a size 6.  Looks like I need to get the right one.  😬

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21 minutes ago, kd8tzc said:

Okay, well it is a modern winder on an OLD spring though.  I'll get some pictures.

Well this is interesting... I just tried it and I was able to keep it hooked (pictures to come), BUT... then I couldn't get any more of it in the winder.  I took a look at the winder and I have a size 5, not a size 6.  Looks like I need to get the right one.  😬

my bad minor clarification of my definition of old spring. Typically I think of old as the blued steel Springs there actually blue in color. Versus the modern Springs that are white in color.

then yes you have to get the size of the wind are correct. If you want to torture your mainspring try to cram it into a Winder smaller than what will be needed and then when you pop it out look at the finish on the spring. Often times we try really hard squeeze it into something the spring will not survive. Somewhere is at a lecture in the claim was that we have like three tries to get the spring in and on the Winder itself will damage the spring don't know how true that is and I don't know where the number came up with but putting mainsprings and winders can be an issue and it's not always a good issue for the mainspring.

 

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Well, I think my spring used up all of it's lives as it broke at the arbor connector when I tried to get it out.  Live and learn.  Well, new spring on the way... ordered yesterday so I should get it tomorrow or Monday.  Then I will get to play with trying to insert that one out of the package and not be able to play with the winder.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Just an update on this project... I was able to get the new mainspring in without much fuss. 

Started to reassemble the watch, and noticed the pallet fork had an issue though... the stones were on a strange angle and were not making contact with the pallet wheel.  This must have occurred when I cleaned it briefly in the IPA.  So, I refitted the stones and did some adjustment's so that the stones are where they should be on the locking face.

The problem I now have though is the balance wheel will not keep running. 

Below are a few pictures of the pallet stones and the pallet wheel.  Not sure what else I should be looking at though.  003 is looking at the exit stone engaged with the pallet wheel, and 004, while not as good die to the  wheel in the way, shows the entry stone engaged with the pallet wheel.

I did make sure that when the balance wheel rotates, it flips the fork back and forth, so I would think that means that the impulse jewel is where it should be with regards to the pallet fork.

What else should I do / inspect to diagnose what the issue might be?

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Posted (edited)

@RichardHarris123I don't believe so.  The pictures are not that good, but I tried to ensure that I was about 1/6th of the face of the stone.  I just did that by sight, but it looks about right.  Are you suggesting that if the stone is too far out, it could cause this issue?  Would that mean that the further out the stone is, I would have more lock and less amplitude?

I wish I could get a better view of the entry stone, but the one gear is in the way and if I remove that, then I can't put any wind on the watch to check how the stones engage the pallet wheel.  Or, is there some way I can do it without that wheel manually?

Edited by kd8tzc
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2 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

This must have occurred when I cleaned it briefly in the IPA. 

No. A brief clean in IPA doesn't do this. They must have been already loose. You often find the shellac on older movements dry and cracked, and even a short time in an ultrasonic (in any solution) shakes it off. 

Is the much play in the pallet fork pivots?

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6 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

So, I refitted the stones and did some adjustment's so that the stones are where they should be on the locking face.

Do you have any pictures to show for this ?

6 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

003 is looking at the exit stone engaged with the pallet wheel, and 004, while not as good die to the  wheel in the way, shows the entry stone engaged with the pallet wheel.

That would be the escape wheel, but sorry we cant see these pictures

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5 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

the stones were on a strange angle and were not making contact with the pallet wheel.  This must have occurred when I cleaned it briefly in the IPA.  So, I refitted the stones and did some adjustment's so that the stones are where they should be on the locking face.

you have to stop buying your isopropyl alcohol from people in the back alleys because you want to save money. You should buy it from a reputable dealer where you know what it is. Because isopropyl alcohol will not do that. Even the alcohol that will dissolves shellac will dissolve it instantaneously.

5 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

I did make sure that when the balance wheel rotates, it flips the fork back and forth, so I would think that means that the impulse jewel is where it should be with regards to the pallet fork.

not a good way to put the watch in beat you could still be grossly out of beat and yes that would affect things

3 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

The pictures are not that good, but I tried to ensure that I was about 1/6th of the face of the stone.  I just did that by sight, but it looks about right.  Are you suggesting that if the stone is too far out, it could cause this issue?  Would that mean that the further out the stone is, I would have more lock and less amplitude?

this is not the best way to adjust your escapement. Then where the pallet stones are is important because if they're too far out he will lose amplitude. Drifted too far in you'll have other problems. But where they are is kind of a package deal the entire escapement has to be adjusted properly to know where to put the pallet stones.

3 hours ago, mikepilk said:

No. A brief clean in IPA doesn't do this. They must have been already loose. You often find the shellac on older movements dry and cracked, and even a short time in an ultrasonic (in any solution) shakes it off. 

also if somebody got creative or possibly even the watch company if it was creative in any case if they were not using shellac. Or someone use some peculiar cleaning fluid in the past that was not friendly for the shellac at all.

then about this time I usually go back and reread the entire discussion and a problem? maybe not a problem but this is a seven jewel watch in other words it's a cheap watch and sometimes with really cheap watches watch companies can be creative which may be why your shellac if it is shellac fell off in the cleaning.

But seven jewels can present other problems like how much wearing has occurred on the pivots and the holes in other words is a watch worn out.

then I can see I asked previously for background history the watch came in covered with oil and I assume it wasn't running at all? I always like to if I can do a pre-timing put the watch on the timing machine and just see what it's doing helpful for cases like this to know if the problem were tracking down occurred before you serviced it or after your service it.

does look like from your picture we can at least see one of the pallet stones as there was a question raised about lubricating the escapement if you can see the pallet stone you can lubricate the escapement which on the previous page I wasn't sure how well that was done.

With the balance wheel out and power on the watch gently push the fork to simulate the balance wheel. as you gently pushing on the fork will it snap nicely to the other side how does it move also make sure the depth the lock is the same on both sides as that can be an issue. which as I reread a gear is in the way but try to look with your eyes you don't need a picture for us.

also when you're having running issues look at the hairspring carefully often times mysteriously they get bent in a touching the balance wheel that tends to be an issue.

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

With the balance wheel out and power on the watch gently push the fork to simulate the balance wheel. as you gently pushing on the fork will it snap nicely to the other side how does it move also make sure the depth the lock is the same on both sides as that can be an issue. which as I reread a gear is in the way but try to look with your eyes you don't need a picture for us.

Okay, did that and it does not snap back and forth.  I have the mainspring fully wound, so I would think there should be significant power to make this jump back and forth.

So what would cause this to not jump back and forth?  Is there shellac that is getting in the way (I thought I checked to ensure that the shellac was minimal and not messy)?  Is the stone flat with the top of the pallet fork so it does not hit the main plate?  Not sure I can check this while it is in the watch, but I will look.  Is there a problem someplace in the train of wheels that is robbing the power?  Not sure how I check that... end play?

Here are some pictures of the pallet fork.  Note that I put this in One Dip for about 2 - 3 minutes to get the oil off of it.  I thought One Dip doesn't dissolve shellac?  I can hardly see any of the shellac on the stones now.  Sorry, the lighting on the pictures really stinks.  I have a lot of light but the camera keeps adjusting the brightness down.  The second picture is the underside and there used to be a small blob of shellac there.

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I redid the shellac on the fork, and I think the shellac is bad.... even though it has cooled completely, the jewel is still able to shift and I am able to break off the shellac.

Is the shellac bad, or am I using too much heat possibly?  Does it break down if too much heat is applied?

Edited by kd8tzc
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1 hour ago, kd8tzc said:

Okay, did that and it does not snap back and forth.  I have the mainspring fully wound, so I would think there should be significant power to make this jump back and forth.

first thing to do removed power removed pallet fork wind up the watch see if the train spins just make sure that is functioning. Then you have to fix the pallet fork because of it's not snapping back and forth or even moving back and forth you will have no running of the watch at all.

1 hour ago, kd8tzc said:

oil off of it

oh and the only place you should have the oil is on the pallet stones you do not what a oil the pallet fork pivots it's not desirable.

So first thing as I said separate problem pallet fork problem or gear train problem? As you start the wind the gear train should at some point time start to spin that's not happening it's a gear train problem.

oh and it's hard to tell with straight down pictures which are fine by the way but we also need or you need to look at it sideways do you still have pivots on your pallet fork.

Then this is where we need the eyes in the field that is you. You have to look at the pallet fork you have to look at the train and study it carefully. If you're not seeing the problem take a break go for a walk lot at times or break will help something to become visible it wasn't visible before.

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6 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

first thing to do removed power removed pallet fork wind up the watch see if the train spins just make sure that is functioning. Then you have to fix the pallet fork because of it's not snapping back and forth or even moving back and forth you will have no running of the watch at all.

Yes, train runs well when pallet fork removed.

As I mentioned at the end of my last post, I think there is an issue with the shellac.  One Dip should not dissolve it, and it should not flake off like hard sugar (that is literally what it looks like when I poke at it with my dental probe).  I'm just taking a pair of junk tweezers and holding the small flake in the jaws and heating that small flake in the flame, and then poking a toothpick into into the glob of shellac and pulling away.  I get a nice string of shellac and then I heat up the warmer until that small string will melt and stick to the fork.  In the first few tries while heating the string will melt but not stick to what I need it to right away.  So back over the heat for a bit until it does.  In most of the videos I don't see this issue, so that I am questioning the shellac flakes.  It is de-waxed blonde flake... I thought that is what we needed.

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On 5/24/2023 at 10:27 PM, kd8tzc said:

but not stick to what I need it to right away

Could it be that there is something on the surfaces, causing it not to stick? Will the shellac stick to other surfaces without any issues?

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1 hour ago, AndyHull said:

Could it be that there is something on the surfaces, causing it not to stick? Will the shellac stick to other surfaces without any issues?

Well let me ask this... maybe I am testing this wrong.  If I heat it and melt it to something metal (say just the pallet warmer), and then let it cool completely.  If I take something like my tweezers, should the shellac crack and flake apart when I poke it with the tweezers?  I just tested that just on the pallet warmer without anything else.  I made sure the pallet warmer was clean, and I heated it up a bit first to allow anything that might be on it after being in lighter fluid and then IPA for a bit (it was dry of both chemicals).  When I melted two small pieces of shellac on the warmer, allowed them to cool for a good 15 minutes, then poked them, the shellac broke apart and flaked.  See the attached image.  The two arrows on the left show the one blob of shellac that I melted and the piece that flaked off.  The arrow on the right shows another that flaked, but it doesn't show the piece that broke off (just the small crater). 

Maybe what I am seeing is normal... I know shellac can crackle depending on the kind, so maybe I just have the wrong type.  It is blonde (dewaxed supposedly).  I'm not 100% certain on the dewaxed part or if this is what would happen with wax in it.  I do have more shellac coming (two different kinds... one is flakes... garnet this time, and another is the rectangular stick).

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3 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

shellac crack and flake apart when I poke it with the tweezers?

almost anything will crack and flake if you poke it hard enough with tweezers.

One of things I have noticed is there is a difference in the shellac. The typical watchmaker shellac comes in little bottles already pulled as sticks and threads over the years that I purchased it to accumulated it comes in different qualities some of what works better some of it flows nice and some of it doesn't.

The current shellac I have was given by somebody who bought a pound of flake shellac that the local whatever store where you buy shellac for wood finishing. this is what I'm currently using seems to be the very best warm it up would melts really nice hardens up nice and hard.

at the link below it talks about shellac notice images it looks like it comes a whole bunch of different colors which conceivably might change things for us don't actually know. They do explain what the variety without wax what is used for the course it does mention watch repair and its low melting temperature.

then it doesn't elaborate on whether removing wax would screw up the shellac for watch repair I'm tending to think based on your results it probably does.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shellac

 

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I've used liquid French polishing shellac, both the crystals that form on the lid of the bottle (heated obviously), and the dissolved stuff in alcohol which you need to leave overnight to set. Both worked perfectly. I did this simply because it was what I had on hand, and I was up for a bit of experimentation, not because I knew one way or the other whether it would work. 

On 5/24/2023 at 8:32 PM, kd8tzc said:

Does it break down if too much heat is applied

Probably, although it seems to be pretty robust.

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