Waltham Woes!

[Swan]

Ok...I'm stuck! I finished a strip/clean & service on an old Waltham pocket watch. I thought everything was going well, I was careful, took a lot of pictures and felt confident it had all gone back together ok. Got it running, regulated and the timegrapher all looking good, so put the movement back in the case...this is where it got weird. 

Watch runs, sub-second hand is running as expected but the hour/minute hands are not moving. If I pull the crown out to the setting position, both hour and minute hand turn as expected. Any ideas on where to start troubleshooting?

 

Let me know if I can provide any additional info to help you help me!!

Thanks, Chris

[KarlvonKoln]

Here's where I get confused also.
The style of case you have - I usually see that kind of pendant tube, onion crown, and large perfectly-circular bow, all in conjunction with lever-set watches.  That kind of crown is usually held in with a screw in the pendant tube because it doesn't need to be pulled outward, since the lever is what puts it in time-setting mode.
Yet I see you wrote that you pulled it out to set the time.  And I believe you.  But I'm now wondering if that case has been altered to accommodate a movement that would not ordinarily be put in there.

Addendum: I don't see a stem screw in the pendant.  But I also only see plate screws in the back.  May I ask: how did you remove the stem?  And, is that a Denison case?  It looks like it could be a kind of early transitional case, from a time when they were switching to crown-wind/crown-set.

Edited April 27, 2023 by KarlvonKoln

[JohnR725]

pocket watches are interesting to work on especially American pocket watches with all variations of keyless and other creative things. Then there's the watch cases themselves seemingly relatively simple but when they are having an issue not pleasant at all. Especially when trying to get replacement components can be interesting

9 hours ago, Swan said:

Got it running, regulated and the timegrapher all looking good, so put the movement back in the case...this is where it got weird. 

then did you test out the functions of winding and setting before the watch was removed from the case? In other words are we dealing with a pre-existing condition or is this something new?

So if the watch in the case can be wound up and pulling it out sets the watch then you're dealing with something not related to the case probably. When you're setting the hands how much friction are you feeling? In other words does it feel like there is no friction at all you may have a Canon pinion issue.

I'm attaching a drawing of the keyless mechanism for a Waltham typically. On American pocket watches as a reminder when the watches removed from the case it no longer has the stem pushing in it then goes into setting mode. Running the watch in setting mode is not desirable as now the watches trying to drive the entire keyless mechanism. Sometimes this will interfere with timing it or just running it. So if you're used to a Swiss watch where you think it's supposed to be in winding mode out of the case that's going to be an issue. Then the various watch companies came up with methods to put the watch back into winding mode and you want to make sure that is where it's supposed to be. Or basically just make sure the keyless is where it's supposed to be. you'll notice in the image the black bar labeled as a shipper bar part D that's what puts the watch into winding mode out of the case. occasionally that part will fall out that's not an issue but you do want to make sure it's pushed back in.

Than here's a nice book that covers pocket watches

https://archive.org/details/TM9-1575

 

 

 

[KarlvonKoln]

I would be blissfully overjoyed to be wrong about this but, after looking up the movement - a grade 610, made in 1908, pendant set - and seeing so many pictures of them installed in later-period cases, I'm pretty sure that is not the movement that was originally in that case.  Or vice versa.  That case style was most commonly made in the late 1800s to very, very early 1900s, but mostly used by lever-set watches.  Usually, a watch in that kind of case dates to 1880s to late 1890s.
The case could maybe be adapted better to function with that movement, but I'm thinking you'll have no end of trouble with it.  I'm unsure how the movement came to be in that case, but from what you tell us, it doesn't seem to have been a happy marriage of the two.

[JohnR725]

just a reminder if we went back in time to purchase a pocket watch it's different than purchasing a wristwatch. The watch companies produced watches they would be available in the display case as a watch. That's one of the reasons they have the ability to go into the running a mode outside of the case so that they can be shown to the customer is a running watch. Then the case itself was available as a separate item you could pick in shoes. Then over time conceivably watches have been changed from one case to another which isn't necessarily an issue except adjusting the sleeve can be an issue. But if the watch can be wound in the case and go to setting it should be fine. Even if the case was made 50 years after the watch. Usually what happens is you get a case where you can't quite go into winding you can pull it out to go to setting but it won't go to winding what it's pushed the and trying to get that last little bit can be quite a challenge.

: A lot of times you look at a watch case especially the bigger size ones and you will ask you see the notch for the lever setting and conceivably will have a watch that's not lever set. Because the cases were made for a size not necessarily a standard watch for setting. sometimes if you look at the watch you look at where the case screws go no notice additional markings in the case were other watches a been in that case not necessarily a problem but the watch cases didn't necessarily last forever and somebody swapped.

[Swan]

Thanks all for the feedback so far - to answer a couple of questions:

The watch was working (although not keeping good time) before I started on it, so the non-movement of minute/second hands is for sure something I've done (or not done)!

The case has been together with that watch since at least 1927 - only reason I can be sure is that it's my great-great Grandfathers and worked it's way down to me over the years (his initials and date are etched in the front cover plate). 

 

I'll start opening her up again and check the keyless works and that the cannon pinion is well fixed. Will keep you posted, but let me know if anything else comes to mind. 

Many Thanks!

[tomh207]

Back in the day, at least from my understanding talking to my grandad, at that time these watches were purely tools. If the case got damaged they would take it to a jeweller or watchmaker and have the case replaced if the movement was good.

 

Tom

[KarlvonKoln]

2 hours ago, Swan said:

The case has been together with that watch since at least 1927 -

Wow!  Well, clearly somebody was able to mate them long ago and make them work together.  And as you learn more about our little trade/hobby/pastime, you should be able to do the same then.  If the watch and case have been functioning together for about that long, then their mutual history makes them a set, at least in the eyes of your personal history.  And with heirlooms that counts for a lot.  Here's hoping we can help you get them working together again soon.

[kashub]

On 4/28/2023 at 3:54 AM, Swan said:

I'll start opening her up again and check the keyless works and that the cannon pinion is well fixed. Will keep you posted, but let me know if anything else comes to mind.

Did you have any luck with this?  I have the same problem with the same Waltham 610 watch, though I haven't put it in a case yet.  One thing in my situation - the cannon pinion is tight, in fact too tight.  It was a bugger to get off and back on.