A Weird "new" Zeno watch with an ETA 2783 .....?

[Endeavor]

The seller, first owner, claims that he bought this watch, by Zeno, from new with 1-year warranty, about 16 years ago. Worn it only a few times and the watch has never been serviced.

Intrigued by the arrow-shaped seconds-hand, the red numbers on the date-disk and it's size of 35mm, I bought the watch. The older 1960's versions of the Russian Komandiskie do also have an arrow-shaped seconds hand, a red numbered date-disk and are 35mm in size.

Would this Zeno watch be inspired by the old 1960's Komandiskie's?

It gets even more weird as this, allegedly after 2000 produced watch, has a 1970's 21-jewels ETA 2783 (21,600 BPH) movement. It has this movement by design, it's clearly written on the display case-back!

So far, I haven't found any information about this watch on the internet, Zeno ref: 12783. Zeno "De Luxe, Automatic".

So, what is it? A retro-design complete with a retro 1970's movement? Is it a ladies watch or, with 35mm, a common 1970's Gents size? Perhaps, even though that the seller bought it 16-years ago from Zeno, new, with full warranty, is it a 1970's NOS??

Than there is perhaps another weird thing. I do have two NOS 25-jewels ETA2783 movements in my drawer. They both do have the usual 3-spokes balance wheel, but this 21-jewels ETA2783 balance wheel is different. Is this a standard balance-wheel for the 21-jewels 2783 or would it be a ("fancy") Zeno modification ?

Is there somebody among us who can enlighten me please ?

I'm very puzzled

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 21, 2023 by Endeavor

[RichardHarris123]

I think having a exhibition back is strange because the rota and its bridge aren't decorated.  Interesting question and I'm waiting for opinions, no idea myself. 

[Nucejoe]

  Thats what ETA  2783 is supose to beat or it wouldn't be a 2783 caliber. 2783 gear train shows time right only with 21600 beat/ hr.

West End Watch India continued  making this caliber  years after Swiss stopped its production,  balance can be made to the order and the watch rebadged per customer order for a popular brand in target territory. With stainless case, you have the choice of one that manufacturer has and can house 2783, making and repair of molds for a stainless steel case are cost prohibitive and not economical for low quantity production.

Strange that you find this strange.

Rgds

 

 

 

[Endeavor]

9 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

  Thats what ETA  2783 is supose to beat or it wouldn't be a 2783 caliber. 2783 gear train shows time right only with 21600 beat/ hr.

I don't get your remark ?

Of course an ETA2783 beats with 21,600 BPH, that's how they are designed. The 21,600 BPH was mentioned because one would expect its successor,  the 2824-2 (28,800 BPH), to be found in a modern watch.

 

9 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

West End Watch India continued  making this caliber  years after Swiss stopped its production,  balance can be made to the order and the watch rebadged per customer order for a popular brand in target territory.

If I understand correctly, you are suggesting that this watch may be a Indian made watch, branded as a Zeno?

That may well be but that raises some other questions;

- Did West End Watch India continued to make this 2783 caliber with the "ETA"-stamp in the main-plate?

 

- The quality of the dial finish is outstanding. The division-lines are sharp & crisp, The lume, applied on top of the numbers, is flawless. The paint layer is thick and the gloss is similar to the dial of my Rolex Sumariner.

- The balance wheel has a different shape than what I have encountered so far and is nicely made;

My question are;

- if these rebranded watches were made per order, why bother to create & produce such a delicate balance-wheel which can hardly be seen, never mind when the watch is running?

- What equipment does it take to make, and what would such a rebranded watch cost with such a high quality, high-end finished dial?

As for the housing, there are no marking to be discovered. There is however one thing of the movement, compared to the two NOS 25-jewels ETA2783 I have, and that is the anti-shock. It's not an Incabloc but what seems to me a KIF;

 

It may well be an Indian production, but than they than didn't skimp on the cost or quality ......

Still strange to me ......

 

Edited April 22, 2023 by Endeavor

[Klassiker]

The company is in Basel and is still using this movement. It might be worth writing to them with your questions.

[Nucejoe]

1 hour ago, Endeavor said:

Did West End Watch India continued to make this 2783 caliber with the "ETA"-stamp in the main-plate?

Yes all Indian made ones are stamped ETA on the mainplate, though it says Swiss made. 

2783 is a ETA designation and  12783 is a designation of zeno. 

You might find Mido 12783 if Mido ever used a eta 2783.  

2783 successor is 2784, the family does not include 2824.

There is also a modified version of 2783 witn  2783 F6 designation, I think specifically for jump hour complication.

This type of balance was designed and made long before eta was established. 

This shock system obviously  suits this balance/staff.

Dial is just painted ( terrible dial plate ) , its not a high quality paint,  no where close  to Rolex with all knid of primer and perhaps gold plated priming. You pay more for the Rolex paint than a  whole zeno watch. 

A marketter's ( of Swiss in leytron ) company,  trip to explore new territories ended in India ( the end of a trip to west ) so the indian company was called west end watch.

India owns  no high grade ETA movement, so if this is a high grade it was not made in India, however , the Swiss company tends to produce in Asia unless you are ready to pay for  high Swiss  labour.

Let us see a tg print of this zeno, I might could tell if its a high grade.

Asian made ETA movements are of inferior quality to Swiss in general, other countries also make eta movements.

I do not know how balance wheels are manufactured.

Rgds

 

 

[Endeavor]

@Nucejoe perhaps you are right, but due to language, I find your answer confusing. However, that may be just me?

The movement feels like high quality, no difference working on my own ETA2783 or working on a 2824-2.

I take the possibility that it could be a fake watch serious, but even with that in mind and searching for clues, I can't find any clear indications / evidence.

If fake, they've done for sure a splendid job.

1 hour ago, Klassiker said:

The company is in Basel and is still using this movement. It might be worth writing to them with your questions.

Yes, I was thinking doing so. Currently I'm servicing the movement and take pictures of my findings. Once all is back together, and when the verdict is still in the air, I'll contact them

 

[Nucejoe]

Endeavor,  rest assured Its not a fake.  I can't accurately tell its grade by the looks. Sometimes can tell a chrono escapement by Timegrapher print out. 

Rgds 

[Endeavor]

3 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Endeavor,  rest assured Its not a fake.  I can't accurately tell its grade by the looks. Sometimes can tell a chrono escapement by Timegrapher print out. 

I'm not too worried that the movement is a fake, I'm puzzled by the differences , why and who has done that? I'm puzzled by a "recently" bought watch equipped with an ETA 2783. I'm trying to find out if the watch is a fake Zeno (as you suggested perhaps made in India), or is it indeed made by Zeno? Since there is nothing to be found on the internet it may well be fake (but than some features don't make any sense) or perhaps it's a small Zeno produced badge or some prototype??

[Nucejoe]

This seems about the quality you get in a Swatch Tissot.

Asian made ETA grade, depends on the technology bought/ transferred to Asian manufacturer, namely Elabore, Standard, top grade, chronograde. @nickelsilverknows of Swiss industries ends and outs. 

Rgds

 

Definately not a fake.

 

[Endeavor]

7 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Sometimes can tell a chrono escapement by Timegrapher print out. 

BTW; before servicing I had the watch briefly on the timegrapher. Having not being serviced, if the seller has indeed bought it from new 16 years ago, Dial UP was a straight line, 296 degrees with 0.0ms beat error and +42 s/d. The seller had mentioned that it ran too fast and needed some regulating.

Here some shots while dissembling the movement;

Edited April 22, 2023 by Endeavor

[JohnR725]

17 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

exhibition back is strange

actually I find the back interesting because I tend to think of them is relatively new. On the other hand since I work on vintage I guess anything the last 25 years may be relatively new but I was still thinking it should be a little newer than that.

3 hours ago, Endeavor said:

delicate balance-wheel

delicate isn't quite the right word the balance wheel looks like a Wyler   “Incaflex”

then it looks like for the balance shock protection it's a Kif-Ultraflex

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&ETA_2783

[Endeavor]

5 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

the balance wheel looks like a Wyler   “Incaflex”

then it looks like for the balance shock protection it's a Kif-Ultraflex

That's very interesting indeed JohnR725. I guess, with this information we can rule out, at least for the movement, any Indian production. I'm also glad that it has this Incaflex balance-wheel as I always had the wish to jump out of airplanes and make hard landings 

Than the question arises; who would take a good working ETA2783 and does these alterations (Kif-Ultraflex & Incaflex balance wheel) and why?

Edit: Reading up on Wyler, in 1993 Wyler was bought by the Binda-group and renamed Wyler-Vetta, who tried to make a come-back in 2007, be it with more fancy / exclusive watches & (007-girl Maria Grazia Cucinotta) wearers;

 

The seller claims that he bought the watch about 16 years ago, 2023 - 16 = about 2007 ...... not sure if his watch, in that price-range, included the girl

 

 

Edited April 22, 2023 by Endeavor

[Nucejoe]

Heres article on makers of Swiss movements. Worth a read.

https://www.crownwatchblog.com/in-depth/watch-movement-manufacturers-three-to-know

Seems to me a subject of horology is how to evaluate the grade of a movement. 

All we need then is a volunteer to jump off the plain. 

Rgds

 

[JohnR725]

I was thinking about a watch I sought work the other day. It reminded me of a Hamilton military watch but it wasn't can't remember the name which is inconvenience. Classic black dial white numbers hands with tritium tubes and lots of engraving on the back of all the specifications like a military watch. Made in Switzerland or at least assembled in Switzerland complete with an OEM Seiko watch movements.

having looked at their website below I have a suspicion that it's a legitimate watch it actually is a Swiss made movements if you read carefully at one time they hand made their watches supposedly even that I find it doubtful. But they basically just case up movements and it's conceivable the movements were new old stock that maybe they just put their added touches on or maybe they just case step new old stock movements. Or maybe they didn't maybe they purchased him new from the factory but it's a very interesting watch I think it's definitely Swiss made it's not a clone movement it's just it seems like the movement is little older that should be for the case but your casing up new old stock. It wouldn't be the first time I've seen a watch that accompany found older movements and put them in modern cases because they pup that be an interesting thing to do.

So basically just have an interesting looking Swiss made watch. Which does demonstrate something nice in that not everybody can remember every single brand so occasionally nice stuff fault cracks and is still incredible deals to be had out there it just that they seem to be few and far between.

 

https://www.zeno-watch.ch/

 

[Endeavor]

Thanks @JohnR725 for the info

Yes, I have no doubt whatsoever that this movement is a genuine ETA2783. It looks and works identical as the two 25-jewels ETA2783's I have. The only difference is, apart from the 21 jewels, that this movement has the Kif-Ultraflex shocks & Incaflex balance wheel. That won't be an alteration done by somebody on a Sunday morning in his garden shed. This is professionally done.

Next to that, the painting on the dial is done to a very high level. The gloss finish and the printing are both exquisite and the lume is applied flawlessly.

I had contact with the seller again and the story changes slightly, insofar that he bought the watch (new) of eBay and not in a jewellery shop. That makes the origin of this watch even more murky.

 

Edited April 23, 2023 by Endeavor

[Endeavor]

I found another very interesting piece of information. On a website called birthyearwatches.com I found an old advertised Zeno de Luxe watch, not identical to my watch, but if you read the text in the advertising, it becomes very interesting; 

https://www.birthyearwatches.com/product/1990-zeno-de-luxe-pilots-watch/

The housing of the advertised watch measures: 37.5mm with crown, 35mm excl.crown, 43.4mm from lug-to-lug and 18mm between the lugs.

These are the exact same measurement as the case of my watch, it's an identical case apart from the back.

Next to that, in the add it is stated that Zeno did buy older NOS movements and put them in modern housings .......

Perhaps Zeno did modified the ETA2783 with the Kif-Ultraflex shocks & Incaflex balance wheel?

As said, the modification is professionally done and Zeno would certainly be capable of doing so .....

 

 

 

[Nucejoe]

 Production line at ETA Swiss is automated therefor  its understandable if they don't consider making movement to the order for Zeno,  its then  down to ETA subsidiaries with old machines and labour intensive production for Zeno to place its order with, which would take Zeno to Asia or high quality producers such as Tudor. A quick look at the price of this watch tells it doesn't enjoy the Tudor know- how.

 On the other hand, quickest way for Zeno to go broke is to think  producing this movement in- house.

I hate to search for the watchmaking group Zeno is hiding amongst, because then we might find out who sold their left over to Zeno. 

Endeavor this is not a high grade movement, nevertheless, once you finish your project,  let us listen to its heart beat to confirm it. 

Regards

[Endeavor]

2 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Production line at ETA Swiss is automated therefor  its understandable if they don't consider making movement to the order for Zeno

There is another lead which I'm following.

2 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

not a high grade movement

I don't think that I ever mentioned that it is "high grade"-movement, so no news there. But it's for sure an authentic modified ETA2783, whatever its grade.

Edited April 23, 2023 by Endeavor

[JohnR725]

you know what I find interesting is terminology like what exactly does watchmaking mean exactly? So for instance at the first link below there is their history they been making watches for a very long time there's still making watches. personally I was think of watchmaking as individually making all the components and putting a watch together but the reality is watchmaking is also taking a movement putting it in a case.

then when were looking at the website down below I notice they have a vintage category that will be the second link. Scrolling down the list of vintage wondering what that really means we get an answer the third link I've seen this kind of watch before. Like everything else on the website at least tell you who made the movement this is a EB 8800 that would definitely explain the terminology of vintage. If you look at the last two links you understand the reference a movement that was made in the 60s not made any more that I'm aware of but maybe it is. A vintage movement in a modern case which explains why it's called vintage.

so what we have is a company purchases movements and cases them up that allows them the call themselves a watchmaker. In the case of their vintage calibers their purchasing odd lots or small lots of movements and casing them up.

so once we grasp what the company is doing in their vintage category we can look at this movement is not Asian or counterfeit it is a real Swiss eta movement modified for Wyler to have their unique balance system and yes the balance jewel protection system they been known to use that in their watches. So it's one of their vintage movements new old stock cased up in a modern case the make something uniquely interesting.

At least interesting for this discussion of why is a vintage movement in a modern case now we know. I wonder what other vintage movements they've cased up?

https://www.zeno-watch.ch/about-us/history/

https://www.zeno-watch.ch/category/vintage-2/

https://www.zeno-watch.ch/product/fhb-jumping-hour-black/

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&EB_8800

https://17jewels.info/movements/e/eb/eb-8800/

 

 

[Nucejoe]

 If you google wyler incaflex watch images, you see several  ETA calibers stamped as wyler incaflex and balances in them clearly shown to be incaflex.  That tells us it wasn't   like wyler bought some NOS they could find cheap and cased them up,  rather, these movements were made with incalflex balance to the order. Incaflex must has been their pride  at the time and to prove their claim,  buyers were chalanged to jump off plain with the watch on their wrist, to find out for themselves if wyler incaflex's  claim was true or not.

 Plus I don't see why any manufacturer other than wyler itself would want to case  wyler incaflex movement, as the other company would be advertising wyler incaflex as popular or improved design , at its own expense. 

Not a bunch of surplus NOS movement, not high grade nor fake. All indicatioms are these movements were made to the order on some old manufacturing line.

 

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

Plus I don't see why any manufacturer other than wyler itself would want to case  wyler incaflex movement, as the other company would be advertising wyler incaflex as popular or improved design , at its own expense. 

the term you're looking for is called Upcycling. Basically somebody is recycling the movements you get your slice of history we unfortunately didn't get to see the marketing for the wristwatch. In other words did they somehow promote and market this is a specific movement order that they just find a movement in case it up so we don't get to see the marketing unfortunately.

so for instance who else is doing Upcycling? understand that word we have a link below and then we look at the second link which is some watches. Look what they're doing their taking vintage American pocket watches which they labor 12 size of not going the railroad grade watches they all Balance protection so drop it on the floor it's a new balance staff and a bargain price it anywhere from starting at 2500 and upwardI see one for $8000 what a bargain. Realizing it probably by a slightly used Rolex for that price.

So this companies promoting other manufacturers and you're wondering why well because there's crazy people out there that have money. So if somebody wants to throw money at you for recycling vintage wrist watch and/or pocket watch movements why not I guess but it is a very strange world we live in. On the other hand it a lot nicer to see the wristwatch movement in this discussion or even these pocket watch movements versus opening up something that looks pretty and. finding a pin lever movement. Thinking there was something much nicer in their.

https://vorticwatches.com/pages/hamilton-v-vortic

https://vorticwatches.com/collections/watches

 

 

 

[Endeavor]

Via other information-channels more & more arrows are starting to point at Mr.Huber, the owner of Zeno. Apparently he is known for buying badges of NOS movements and creating small series with them.

The text on Zeno's website gives us already a hint;

"We owe it to the energy of Felix W. Huber that over one hundred new watch creations are developed every year and often manufactured in extremely small series based on the historical original models"

I may well be that he bought a badge of NOS, for Wyler modified ETA movements, created (or modified an existing) dial for them and cased these movements.

To confirm, I've to contact Zeno in the hope that they remember or are willing to ask Mr.Huber.

 

Edited April 24, 2023 by Endeavor

[Endeavor]

Fully serviced, ready for a 24-hrs trial. First signs are good. DU & DD over 300 with straight lines.

Edited April 24, 2023 by Endeavor