Balance only runs in one orientation, the other way around it brakes

[Fischgott]

I have a small mechanical vintage Anker women's watch, case diameter 1.5 cm. I completely disassembled it and cleaned it with petrol, then reassembled it after lubricating it. Problem, the balance wheel only runs when the dial is facing up, I tilt it 90 degrees, it keeps running, a few degrees more and it slows down and further then it stops. So the lower bearing probably works when the weight of the balance rests on it.

 

This can actually only be due to the balance wheel, since it's tiny, it doesn't have much momentum and that's where an irregularity becomes a problem. I guess watchmakers hate these little clocks. I have removed the rubies on both sides several times, washed, cleaned, oiled and reinstalled them, they look great, the cones also look good, but I can only judge them to a limited extent because they are so tiny, you would have to look at them under the microscope to see fine details but I can't, I only have a strong magnifying glass and strong reading glasses. When I swapped the bearings, I didn't get a clear result, I think the upper bearing didn't work at the bottom either. One hint is that it is difficult to get the balance wheel out, I have to grab the flywheel with a second pair of tweezers to get it shaken out. Perhaps a tiny step has somehow been ground into the pivot and the pivot hooks into the bearing ruby. But that's just speculation.

 

I don't have much experience yet, this is my 5th mechanical watch that I have completely disassembled and serviced, and 4 quartz watches. But I've always managed it so far and even watches that didn't run went very well again.

 

Maybe someone here has more experience and can tell me what I can do to find out what's wrong.

Btw. anyone serviced the "Jaeger-LeCoultre Calibre 101" from 1930? I ask myself what a watchmaker says if he is asked to service it.

Edited April 20, 2023 by Fischgott

[nickelsilver]

It could really be a whole range of things, but likely a pivot issue. And I've worked on quite a few 101 and 104 movements (the 104 is about 1mm bigger, haha), including making staffs and pinions. Also the 103, which is oval and slightly bigger, done some new hairsprings for those too! They aren't too bad to work on, but there are zero parts available so any errors mean making them.

[fellerts]

Could the balance wheel be rubbing against something else, e.g. the center wheel? I'd suggest the following test: remove the whole train of wheels and the escapement, assemble the balance alone and test it in the positions you mentioned by giving it a puff from your blower. If it rotates freely in all positions, you know that it's probably fouling some other component of the train. If not, it's possibly a bearing issue -- at least, the problem is isolated to the balance itself.

[Fischgott]

Very good and simple idea to check the bearings alone, thank you. I guess the watch was bought, worn until it stopped working and then stored. I removed the anchor or pellet fork and then checked it, on one side it oscillates freely and for a long time and on the other not at all, so it's a bearing problem with the balance wheel. I removed the balance from the bearing, i.e. removed the spring and looked at the whole thing with a pocket microscope, and I can actually guess a step, namely on the side on which it stops when the weight of the balance rests on the side. A small lip at the very end of the pivot. But I can't see it exactly, the whole thing is so outrageously small that it should actually be forbidden by law.

Very impressive a hairspring for such a tiny watch. There is almost no information out there how such springs are made, the few sources claim that it is almost rocket science. I think we are very limited in repairing those small things, unlike an alarm clock, there everythink can be done by a watchmaker. With the right grease those things would run endlessly i guess. Like PTFE synthetic grease.

 

Update: I pulled (german: zupfen) the pivots with the tweezers and rolled them in between them in order to remove lips. Then traightened the spring a bit, then assembled the balance and dropped everything, then the spring wrapped itself nicely all around it, so I disassembled it again and straightened the spring again and now it works again in all positions, just have to test whether it is reliable and whether it can still be used to measure the time.

Sorry for the delay, my posts have to be approved before they are here, this is very unusual. 

 

Fun fact, you can't hear the watch, even if I hold the running movement directly to my ear, i.e. it is well lubricated, another non-lubricated watch, you can really hear how the pellet fork scrapes and it ticks, I think that speaks for itself. I use universal grease for gears and pivots and the escapement wheel with anchor jewels, silicone grease for the mainspring and baby oil for the balance and anchor pivots.

Edited April 20, 2023 by Fischgott

[Fischgott]

Update: The watch stopped one time, but now it runs since a few hours, i hope that the watch will be reliable if it runs for a longer time, or it could be dust in the gears, i didnt care while i was troubleshooting the balance.

Offtopic: I posted in another german forum, and they linked to this thread here and deleted my account. Was my approach too creative or do they think im joking because i post on different forums? I cant follow, it makes no sense. And its sad, if you stand out of the croud people go after you. There were very nice people, i would have loved to stay in contact.  Im working on movements not because im professional or have the intention to be one, its a hobby, i want to learn new things and experiment with new things, it helps in every aspect of life. Thanks for the help, here and the people in the german forum. Without the help i wouldt have tried it.

[fellerts]

19 hours ago, Fischgott said:

Update: I pulled (german: zupfen) the pivots with the tweezers and rolled them in between them in order to remove lips. Then traightened the spring a bit, then assembled the balance and dropped everything, then the spring wrapped itself nicely all around it, so I disassembled it again and straightened the spring again and now it works again in all positions, just have to test whether it is reliable and whether it can still be used to measure the time.

Those are some bold moves, I'm impressed that you didn't break anything as you mentioned, hairspring work is indeed regarded as rocker surgery and feared by many amateurs. That's because the exact geometry (and I mean exact), length, stiffness, anchor point in relation to the impulse jewel, resting position and so on all affect the timekeeping of your movement in ways you wouldn't even imagine. Combine this with the fact that the hairspring is one of the most delicate parts of a movement and I understand why people fear it... I'm under the impression that hairsprings should not be feared, but you must have ample respect for them. It takes years of practice before one is competent. I'm certainly not, but sometimes knowing your limits can be beneficial...

19 hours ago, Fischgott said:

baby oil

Did this get mangled in translation, or are you actually using baby oil for the balance? I understand that Moebius 9010 is an expensive investment, but proper lubrication is crucial. Anecdotally, using D5 instead of 9010 on the escape wheel on a 18000 bph movement will rob tens of degrees of amplitude -- probably more on a movement as small as yours. I can't imagine what baby oil will do. Do you have a timegrapher to check the result of your work?

[Fischgott]

Its a hobby, there is nothing to fear, i just get angry if i fail at something, thats all. Bought this watch for cheap, i don't want to be a professional, only to try things out. If you fear something because you have something to loose, you have lesser opportunities to develop your skills. Im also positively surprised i didn't brake anything and the hairspring and the rest is sturdier than i expected. You have to be talented, i think this is the main factor, and additional luck, im my case  

 

I've spent exactly 0 dollars on watchtools so far and I think that's quite good, but above all I made them myself.

I'm very familiar with lubricants, grease has the advantage that it doesn't dry out, it stays in place, ideal for the pivots, you could also use a solid lubricant, that might be even better. Micronized PTFE Powder or Graphite Powder would be an idea.

No i use actually baby oil, i did tribological tests with different kinds of lubrication substances. Baby oil, or vaseline aka. parrafine jelly were sometimes better in lubrication than normal grease, but every lubricant has its own characteristics and applications regarding temperature for example. I think baby oil is a very good lubricant, if consists of "parrafinum liquidum". It doesn't gum up, does not dry out and should be present on the rubies for a long time. But im not sure, maybe it doesnt, only time will tell.

I understand that a car engine has very specific oils, but in a watch its not that complicated, in fact the rubis have very low friction by themselves. Maybe the expensive stuff has its place, maybe not, maybe babyoil is better.

 

I have no timegrapher, i just use a stopwatch to regulate a watch, or i regulate the watch over a longer period of time, say a day. I dont have a problem if i cant get them absolutely accurate, they are absolutely inferior to quarz watches, if i want very accurate time i use a quarz watch, preferably a digital one, but i like watches, i have many different kinds and i use them all. My worst mechanical watch gains 10 seconds a day, im completely fine with that.

 

The watch stopped today, and i cant wind it up, the mainspring has shatterd. This watch has a lot of surprises, it refuses to behave well i guess. Now is the question, how do i get a new one, i have no idea which parameters to search for, and it shouldn't be expensive too.

 

 

 

I wound the watch completely up, until the resistance kicked in. Maybe its better to stop earlier?

Edited April 21, 2023 by Fischgott

[Fischgott]

Update: I have another project, a Swatch Automatic, where the balance jewel or balance wheel bearing is secured with a spring and 3 grooves. This means that the spring would jump out immediately if you twisted it and if you want to put it back in, then in my opinion you need a special tool that presses the spring down in 3 places on the 3 grooves so that you can twist it into the lock position. tips for this?

 

There's a really wide variety of spring fasteners, I broke a spring once, they're really very sensitive. Where would you get a replacement? I guess either you put a lot of money on the table and then get something that doesn't fit via airmail, or you have to use old broken movement and try to find something suitable.

 

I think the Swatch is the "highest quality" I've ever worked on. From a well-known company, one expects such extras that require special tools. If not, I'll take it back.

 

I also had a radio-controlled watch, a more expensive one, there was a clasp on the back made of a stainless steel ring to pop open, so with a fit as a clasp, and a pane of glass in the middle. Of course the glass pane cracked when I opened it. But that was so that in addition to the fit, a lip in both parts ensured that the cover engaged the case. I had that with another watch, too, which I simply couldn't close with force. You would then probably need a watch press and run the risk of breaking something with the force. I just filed the lip down until the lid went back in easily on the clocks and sealed with silicon grease. I replaced the glass with acrylic glass and glued it in with epoxy. Now the watch is transparent on the back and therefore better than before :-) But I wonder how one is supposed to get such a lid with a lip and glass insert open, the instructions say that only the watchmaker can do this with special tools. Radio-controlled watches don't even need a glass back, there are also some with a completely steel case.