Wrong serial in PW database?

[arron]

Good morning,

I am working on a waltham PW and need to order a jewel, so i need to identify the movement.  When i enter the serial number (21693102) into the database it shows a different smaller movement with a different number of jewels. it shows a 12s with 15 jewels.  mine has 17 jewels and is at least a 16s, maybe a 18s (it's 43 mm in dia).   Any idea what's happening and how i might otherwise be able to identify the movement and order the jewel.  Thank you.  Arron.

[arron]

So i finally found an image of a waltham movement that looks the same as mine and has the same specs, see pic.  it's a model 1908 16s.  the serial number is 16,981,074.  mine, again, is 21,393,102 (which shows up in the pw database as a totally different movement).  would i be safe in finding a replacement jewel for the model 1908, or is there reason to believe this is not the same movement as mine, besides that weird serial number on mine?  Arron.

[RichardHarris123]

I don't know if the jewel will work but it may be worth marking the pocket watch database as incorrect and writing why it is.

[JohnR725]

On 4/18/2023 at 10:35 AM, arron said:

mine has 17 jewels and is at least a 16s, maybe a 18s (it's 43 mm in dia)

I've attached a PDF of movement sizes helpful for future questions. I would say this is a 16 size.

19 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

I don't know if the jewel will work but it may be worth marking the pocket watch database as incorrect and writing why it is.

while the pocket watch databases known to have mistakes this isn't their mistake it's a mistake in the Waltham parts book.

I snipped out a image out of the wall from serial number list as you can see 21,693,001 is the start of the series and goes up to another 7000. So that would definitely spanned the serial number range of the serial number.

the third link is for a Waltham parts catalog but wasn't seeing the watch so I just PDF model you need out of a later catalog which I've attached.

On 4/18/2023 at 9:00 PM, arron said:

finding a replacement jewel

which tool or you looking for?

 

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/waltham/21693102

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/waltham/16981074

https://archive.org/details/catalogueofwalth00walt

 

 

watch-ligne-size-chart.pdf Waltham Watch and Clock Material - 1948 Edition.pdf 1908.pdf

[arron]

John, you are such a treasure trove of information and resources, thank you very much.  I'm looking for the upper balance pivot hole jewel.  I'm not sure how to go about getting one.  there's a seller on ebay, but it requires knowing the hole diameter, which i don't have a tool for but maybe i can get close by inserting a small rod in the hole then measuring the rod.  Cas-Ker has some but it's a one size fits all waltham 16-18s, so i'm suspicious as to whether it will fit mine.  i'll email them and see what additional info they have on that one.  It's a cool old watch so hopefully i can get her running better.  Arron.  PS. I did put a note in the PW database about the error in case someone else runs into it.

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, arron said:

upper balance pivot hole jewel. 

basically the pivot of your staff determines the size the jewel. But then there are the problems of part numbers.

just because it might be easier to read than the PDF snipped out some images. You can see the serial number range of your watches where it's supposed to be even if the serial number book indicates the wrong watch. Then hold jewels you get a couple of choices for the upper and lower depending upon how it goes in. Then I have another reference book that lists just the jewels you can see lots of variations but you get some approximate sizing of how big the setting should be.

So usually if you're replacing a hole jewel it's because you ever broken balance staff and whatever staff size pivot you have will determine the jewel size the jewel is usually a little bigger than the pivots size so the course to fit together promptly.

[arron]

Thanks John.  A few questions based on that information, if i could.  

1. am i reading the chart correctly, that if i have the model 1908 then the new factory number for mine is the 4946F and that then reduces the possible jewel candidates to either the .12 or .13 hole diameter?  

2. am i correct that the "cock hole jewel" is the upper balance cock pivot jewel and the "foot hole jewel" is the lower balance pivot jewel that sits in the dial plate?  I've never heard those terms before so want to make sure i'm understanding.

3.  does the "F." and "C." in the description column refer to the foot hole jewel and the cock hole jewel respectively?

4. regarding the reference page with the jewel sizes, is that found in the PW database; if so what the is the title so i can look for it.

5.  if the top and bottom holes jewels are the same size (according to the reference chart if i'm reading it correctly), then is it a viable option to find a wire that fits the lower jewel and then measure that with a micrometer to get the exact size--i understand that i wouldn't want to use my good balance pivot for measuring for risk of damaging the pivot.

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, arron said:

4946F

even though from the charts this may appear to be correct  you should disassemble and remove the jewel assembly to verify what exactly you have. Then if your pivot is still good what  is wrong with the jewel? 

2 hours ago, arron said:

2. am i correct that the "cock hole jewel" is the upper balance cock pivot jewel and the "foot hole jewel" is the lower balance pivot jewel that sits in the dial plate?  I've never heard those terms before so want to make sure i'm understanding.

watch repair terminology is interesting in that it varies by location and when it occurred. So as we don't have a universal terminology for everything Lotta parts could have lot of different names. So yes the foot would be the main plate of the bottom and the cock is the top or the balance bridge's case.

 

2 hours ago, arron said:

3.  does the "F." and "C." in the description column refer to the foot hole jewel and the cock hole jewel respectively?

then that's just the short version of what I explained up above just the abbreviation

2 hours ago, arron said:

4. regarding the reference page with the jewel sizes, is that found in the PW database; if so what the is the title so i can look for it.

the problem with a pocket watch database is it doesn't have everything. Some of us have been accumulating data over a very long time some of it does not exist is a PDF. But as you asked there's an image of the cover page and the associated one for the balance staffs that can be purchased off of eBay if you hurry it looks like the down to the last copy

https://www.ebay.com/itm/162769575312

one of the reason stuff like this may not exist as PDFs there are copyright issues like who holds the copyright to the book

2 hours ago, arron said:

5.  if the top and bottom holes jewels are the same size (according to the reference chart if i'm reading it correctly), then is it a viable option to find a wire that fits the lower jewel and then measure that with a micrometer to get the exact size--i understand that i wouldn't want to use my good balance pivot for measuring for risk of damaging the pivot.

they actually make or the past have made gauges for this in a box is a whole bunch of plugs with a really tiny little end piece that you can use to figure out what size hole you have. On the other hand you can see if you can find some cheap balance staffs on eBay where you know the pivots size you could make your own. Or in this case just err on the biggest size and not worry about it. If you are replacing the balance staff then you might change your jewels to match whatever staff you're getting because despite the reference material listing all of these sizes the reality is you won't really get all the sizes today

 

[arron]

I like the idea of making my own jewel hole gauges as you suggest and thanks for confirming my interpretation of the reference material.  the balance pivots are intact although they look a little rough, probably caused by the jagged edges of the blown out jewel hole.  Thanks for all your help John and have a great weekend; hopefully it's not too wet in your area, although i imagine it is  .  Arron.