Escape wheel problems

[Boxerartist]

Hello All, first post other than intro. I’m having a problem with the escape wheel staying in place, the pivots look ok to me, but what do I know, I’ve used two escape wheels in the same seagull clone movement, both continue to slip out of place. I checked the pivot holes under magnification and they look ok. I know you guys need pictures, so I’m buying the camera adapter to actually take photos through my  Amscope. Any general idea as to why two different escape wheels in the same plate  won’t spin when all other wheels do? First post so be gentle. Thanks, Mark

[Nucejoe]

Upper and lower jewels are too far apart, must be adjusted.

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, Boxerartist said:

Hello All, first post other than intro. I’m having a problem with the escape wheel staying in place, the pivots look ok to me, but what do I know, I’ve used two escape wheels in the same seagull clone movement, both continue to slip out of place. I checked the pivot holes under magnification and they look ok. I know you guys need pictures, so I’m buying the camera adapter to actually take photos through my  Amscope. Any general idea as to why two different escape wheels in the same plate  won’t spin when all other wheels do? First post so be gentle. Thanks, Mark

Eyup mark. What is the history of the movement you are working on ? Did this come to you as new ?

[mikepilk]

If you hold a loupe over a phone camera lens, you can get surprisingly good pics

[RichardHarris123]

3 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

If you hold a loupe over a phone camera lens, you can get surprisingly good pics

I haven't tried that, I'll give it a go. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, RichardHarris123 said:

I haven't tried that, I'll give it a go. 

It work really well Rich . Most of the close ups inside a movement i post are done this way

[Nucejoe]

14 hours ago, Boxerartist said:

I know you guys need pictures,

What we need is you to check for the most probable fault. 

Remove all parts, then  fit the escape lower pivot in the hole its suppose to go in and place its bridge on it, tighten all bridge screws.

Next,  if escape wheel as you say slips out of the place, its either short pivot or  upper & lower jewels are too far apart and need to be adjusted. 

Adjustment is to move the jewels so escape wheel engages with third gear( the one before it) and  engages with the fork pallets as well ( pallet and escape wheel both in the same flat plane).

A worn or broken  pivot is usually easy to spot, as it  is shorter than the other.

Rgds

 

[JohnR725]

16 hours ago, Boxerartist said:

I’ve used two escape wheels in the same seagull clone movement

It would be helpful to have a little more background story. Typically the Chinese clones getting spare parts is impossible you have to buy another movement. Yet you have to escape wheels for one movement so where did the other escape wheel come from? Where both movements purchased at the same time?

Then if you're new to watch repair tiny pivots are really easy to break off and it may not be obvious to you that they broke off. Sometimes the pivot even stays in the jewel and it looks like it's there Because it's now in the jewel and no longer attached to the escape wheel.

16 hours ago, Boxerartist said:

I know you guys need pictures, so I’m buying the camera adapter to actually take photos through my  Amscope.

Then photographs a lot of time small handheld digital cameras will have a digital micro mode and that does extremely well. You don't necessarily need some fancy special set up just need to look at what cameras you have and see if any of them would work. Or as others have said magnifying glasses In front of the phone do surprisingly well I think I've even seen where there's a company that makes an adapter for phones for just this purpose maybe not watch repair but for close-up pictures

[Boxerartist]

Appreciate all the great advice, I did buy two of the Chinese movements, and you may be right about the pivots. I have a microscope, and have examined them, but not really sure if they’re broken or not. I’ll try and take some pictures. Thanks again

[HectorLooi]

Definitely looks broken to me.

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

Definitely looks broken to me.

I would agree with that assessment and perhaps use the phrase your pivots are missing which is why you're not noticing that they're not there. As opposed to their broken and their partially they are there totally gone.

[RichardHarris123]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

I would agree with that assessment and perhaps use the phrase your pivots are missing which is why you're not noticing that they're not there. As opposed to their broken and their partially they are there totally gone.

Agree, the pivots are missing.  

[Neverenoughwatches]

6 hours ago, Boxerartist said:

Appreciate all the great advice, I did buy two of the Chinese movements, and you may be right about the pivots. I have a microscope, and have examined them, but not really sure if they’re broken or not. I’ll try and take some pictures. Thanks again

No pivots, in fact looks like they were never there. Thats a bugger maybe one good reason to avoid buying Chinese clones

[Nucejoe]

Chinese pivots are known to reach the orbit faster than European ones. 

[Boxerartist]

5 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

No pivots, in fact looks like they were never there. Thats a bugger maybe one good reason to avoid buying Chinese clones

 

Just now, Boxerartist said:

 

Agree, just getting into this, so bought them merely to get the feel for disassembling  and assembling, helpful to know though, appreciate the reply.

[Neverenoughwatches]

40 minutes ago, Boxerartist said:

 

Agree, just getting into this, so bought them merely to get the feel for disassembling  and assembling, helpful to know though, appreciate the reply.

No problem. It its watch repair , we all need help. Personally i stick to old vintage swiss watches as they tended to be of reasonable quality and can be picked up for much less than something new ( learning what is good and what is crap can save you money ) That has its own drawbacks also, how well was it looked after, who has played around with it and messed it up. You can end up with a minefield of issues, thats just how i prefer to learn, jumping in at the deep end suits me. 

[Boxerartist]

Thanks again, just for my clarification, in the picture I sent, the  pivot should be rounded and in that escape wheel it’s clearly flat, am I correct?

[RichardHarris123]

There should be a thinner section, like this on both ends. 

[JohnR725]

11 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Thats a bugger maybe one good reason to avoid buying Chinese clones

 

5 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Personally i stick to old vintage swiss watches as they tended to be of reasonable quality and can be picked up for much less than something new

the reason why somebody like me recommends the clone of the 6497 is it's cheaper than trying to buy the vintage version off of eBay for instance. Well sort of you can sometimes find the movements if somebody hasn't labeled what they are in the case and you understand exactly where the hand placement is you can sometimes get lucky and get 6497's for a reasonable price but if anyone knows what the movement is you're looking at one way more money than a Chinese watch. then if it's used there is the other problem.

initially in watch repair you need to learn how to assemble and disassemble without destroying the watch. So ideally practice movements to disassemble and reassemble used would be fine if you would just practice assembling and disassembling and paying attention with no intention on repairing. In other words you need to practice lots of practice but people don't want to do that. They want to jump in and start doing repairs.

the problem with jumping in and doing a repair is you don't know how to do repairs and you don't know how to successfully assemble and disassemble certainly not when you're starting out none of us did. Everyone breaks stuff when you're starting off. So starting off with a broken watch in the first place you'll usually get really frustrated with trying to repair it in other words trying to fix whatever problem exists plus whatever probably you are generating because you haven't practiced on disassembling and reassembling. plus the other problem with a broken non-running watch is people don't take the time to study what a running watch looks like.

the best way to grasp the reality of things is to start with a running watch something large like the clones the 6497. because it's running in the first place you don't have to worry about the repair aspect. All you have to just disassemble and reassemble it without a pivots falling off. There have a pivot does fall off which is quite common when you're learning watch repair you can see that the watches are running versus trying to repair something and being confused over was that pivot broken before you started or did you break the pivot? It's basically just a good learning exercise to disassemble and reassemble and you can still practice disassembling and reassembling what you have.

Also one of the missing pivots look like? I've attached an image it's not a great image but that's what escape wheel pivots look like all your wheels should have pivots. Pallet fork should have pivots but they tend to like the falloff also. I'm not good explain how I know that pallet fork pivots falloff they just do sometimes. Everybody breaks stuff when their learning. This is why the clone is relatively cheap it's running it makes it easy to see if something has mysteriously fallen off versus starting off with broken watches and being frustrated with what the problem is.

the most important thing is to learn from your mistakes. Perhaps slow down a little bit pay attention to what the parts look like. They started with a running watch take some time to look at it look at how the balance wheel oscillates. Look at how the hairspring looks because that's another thing that mysteriously somehow gets distorted in other words is no longer flat or no longer opens and closes in a beautiful fashion or maybe the balance doesn't even move at all. All mysterious things that happen when you're learning watch repair.

 

[Boxerartist]

3 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

 

the reason why somebody like me recommends the clone of the 6497 is it's cheaper than trying to buy the vintage version off of eBay for instance. Well sort of you can sometimes find the movements if somebody hasn't labeled what they are in the case and you understand exactly where the hand placement is you can sometimes get lucky and get 6497's for a reasonable price but if anyone knows what the movement is you're looking at one way more money than a Chinese watch. then if it's used there is the other problem.

initially in watch repair you need to learn how to assemble and disassemble without destroying the watch. So ideally practice movements to disassemble and reassemble used would be fine if you would just practice assembling and disassembling and paying attention with no intention on repairing. In other words you need to practice lots of practice but people don't want to do that. They want to jump in and start doing repairs.

the problem with jumping in and doing a repair is you don't know how to do repairs and you don't know how to successfully assemble and disassemble certainly not when you're starting out none of us did. Everyone breaks stuff when you're starting off. So starting off with a broken watch in the first place you'll usually get really frustrated with trying to repair it in other words trying to fix whatever problem exists plus whatever probably you are generating because you haven't practiced on disassembling and reassembling. plus the other problem with a broken non-running watch is people don't take the time to study what a running watch looks like.

the best way to grasp the reality of things is to start with a running watch something large like the clones the 6497. because it's running in the first place you don't have to worry about the repair aspect. All you have to just disassemble and reassemble it without a pivots falling off. There have a pivot does fall off which is quite common when you're learning watch repair you can see that the watches are running versus trying to repair something and being confused over was that pivot broken before you started or did you break the pivot? It's basically just a good learning exercise to disassemble and reassemble and you can still practice disassembling and reassembling what you have.

Also one of the missing pivots look like? I've attached an image it's not a great image but that's what escape wheel pivots look like all your wheels should have pivots. Pallet fork should have pivots but they tend to like the falloff also. I'm not good explain how I know that pallet fork pivots falloff they just do sometimes. Everybody breaks stuff when their learning. This is why the clone is relatively cheap it's running it makes it easy to see if something has mysteriously fallen off versus starting off with broken watches and being frustrated with what the problem is.

the most important thing is to learn from your mistakes. Perhaps slow down a little bit pay attention to what the parts look like. They started with a running watch take some time to look at it look at how the balance wheel oscillates. Look at how the hairspring looks because that's another thing that mysteriously somehow gets distorted in other words is no longer flat or no longer opens and closes in a beautiful fashion or maybe the balance doesn't even move at all. All mysterious things that happen when you're learning watch repair.

 

 

9 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

No problem. It its watch repair , we all need help. Personally i stick to old vintage swiss watches as they tended to be of reasonable quality and can be picked up for much less than something new ( learning what is good and what is crap can save you money ) That has its own drawbacks also, how well was it looked after, who has played around with it and messed it up. You can end up with a minefield of issues, thats just how i prefer to learn, jumping in at the deep end suits me. 

Thanks John, you’ve been a great help, so lucky to have found this site. I bought two of those Chinese movements, the second one the pivots look ok, I’ve enclosed the picture of the escape wheels side by side. I’m at the stage where I can take apart a movement and put it back together, fault finding is going to take much longer, like anything else it’s practice, practice, practice, you have to start somewhere I guess, I’m on that learning curve where I just know the absolute basics (how to use tweezers, screwdrivers and the amount of touch required. I’ll learn the theory behind the movement as time allows. Baby steps for now! Thank again for all of you help.

[Nucejoe]

On 3/28/2023 at 7:58 AM, Boxerartist said:

 I’ve used two escape wheels in the same seagull clone movement, both continue to slip out of place. 

 

2 hours ago, Boxerartist said:

. I bought two of those Chinese movements, the second one the pivots look ok, I’ve enclosed the picture of the escape wheels side by side. 

Confusing.  Unless jewels have been pushed apart too.

Edited March 30, 2023 by Nucejoe

[HectorLooi]

The one on the right appears to have the pivots intact. It could be like @Nucejoe says, the jewels have been pushed apart.