Jump to content

Rich has another new toy.


Recommended Posts

Eyup watch peeps, i may be using up my quota for posts this week but i just have to add this one. Out of the myriad of watch faults that have us beginners confused and halted on projects for various reasons. There has always been 3 main ones that stood out for me. These seemed to be the 3 most common issues with watches that i bought from Ebay when i started. My goal since has been to aquire the tools to solve these main problems. No.1 broken pivots on a balance staff. For this we need a new staff and the tools to swap the old broken staff for a nice shiny new one. The most important tool for this would be a staking tool and its staking set, to tap out the broken one and then rivet the new staff to the balance wheel ( actually not as easy as it sounds ).  This i aquired fairly quickly within 2 months of starting. But what if a replacement staff is not available, what then ? Then we have to make one ( for me this is where the true title of a watchmaker is, the actual making of parts rather than the replacement of them ) for that we need some small hard round steel, a lathe, some gravers to cut that steel aannnnd a shed load of patience and skill ( that will come in time, however long it takes is anyone's guess ).The lathe was the next on my list 👍. Job sorted one Wolf Jahn lathe with lots of bits to play with. In steps fault No. 2 a broken or missing winding stem. I overlooked plenty of good watches that had a stem missing in fear of not finding a nos. one or having to buy a donor movement to supply what could be a damaged one. This then possibly doubling the cost of your initial purchase. The lathe now lends itself to another purpose along with another skill for you to learn ( hell if you can turn and finish a staff that works then you can surely make a stem ) . And finally No 3 watch fault on my list, the infamous damaged or missing hairspring. Surprisingly enough I've found the hairspring quite repairable even in some very sorry states. Not so much a very old non alloy type, just looking at an old one they can fall apart. So again if its beyond repair or missing we are in need of a donor, 🤔 not just a hairspring but the full balance assembly to be sure that everything there matches up and works correctly so more money again. And If its a quality movement then that could be very costly. Our alternative solution here, a raw untimed hairspring  and the tool used to help make it dance to the correct frequency required for the movement. So possibly the most expensive tool needed here and the most skill required to install ( time, cut, shape and pin accurately to the collet and the stud ) the hairspring once its active length is found. What used to be part of the great Smiths watch company is now British Precision Springs Ltd, possibly the only supplier of hairsprings to the general public. Apparently not an easy company to deal with, you need to know your stuff and what you want. Aquiring Help is rather challenging, so plenty of research is needed to figure out your needs and probably even more luck with a sprinkling of trial and error ( but hey who ever said watchmaking is easy🤔 actually nobody did ) . And then we have the tool. A hairspring vibrator also sometimes called a Luthy ( not sure if that is a brand name or the inventor, if someone would like to comment then feel free ). There are a few different types ranging from simple to all singing and all dancing. The one i have just bought is somewhere in the middle. The general gist of use is once the hairspring is attached to the balance wheel it is then held directly above another balance that has been accurately timed to a specific frequency. The two balances are separated by a piece of glass so that both are visible. The balance to be timed is lightly rested on its bottom pivot just touching the glass, and its balance wheel arms aligned with those of the regulated ( template ) balance. The two balances are then set in motion by rotating the Luthy a few times. The watchmaker then observes the two balances for synchronisation. The balance to be timed may be slower than the template in which case the point of holding ( the hairspring's active length ) is moved away from where the  stud would eventually be pinned thereby shortening it active length and increasing its timing . If the balance to be timed is faster than the template then the opposite and the point of holding is moved closer to the eventual stud point to slow the balance. Once  the correct active length is found to make both balances oscillate in harmony then a little extra length is  added to the hairspring to accommodate the stud and also give some regulation tolerance.  The active length ideally should be midway on its terminal curve to allow for some accurate regulation without the regulator reaching either the far end of slow or fast. One point to note is that the Luthy's balance has a set frequency commonly 18,000 which may or may not match the movement you are working on. I haven't got as far as finding out how to change the balance out yet for a different one. Theres actually a lot more to it than that but i think I've more than achieved my longest post ever.  Heres my new toy. Enjoy x

16799408645705963437271993039313.jpg

16799408999392393774444541298619.jpg

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, kd8tzc said:

Very cool!  I don't think I will ever be a true watchmaker as I can't even afford the little wooden stand that Bergeon sells for the lathe 🙂 .  Oh well, I can dream, can't I?

If only there was one definition of watchmaker 🤪😂

 

Tom

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, tomh207 said:

Congratulations on your grail tool @Neverenoughwatches

not something I think I want to get into Rich but a fine ambition to have.

 

Tom

Thanks Tom. The ambition is to become a good amateur as Its only a small step onto the ladder of watch part making and will never go any further than this and also a long way off from even realising this step. But now i have these tools it will eventually give me some kind of independence when these parts are either unobtainable, expensive or i just want to get on.  And again ( not wanting to discourage anyone ) this only a tiny fraction of the hundreds if not thousands of things that can possibly go wrong in a watch. Hence our admiration of the skill of our pros here. 

2 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

Very cool!  I don't think I will ever be a true watchmaker as I can't even afford the little wooden stand that Bergeon sells for the lathe 🙂 .  Oh well, I can dream, can't I?

Dont think never because you dont truly know that kd, dreams can be realised mate. Do what you can do and get good at it that should be enough to make you happy. You dont need to chase after something that you want, if its meant to be it will happen.  All of us are in different circumstances, positions and stages of life, that can all change at the drop of a hat. 🙂

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

One point to note is that the Luthy's balance has a set frequency commonly 18,000 which may or may not match the movement you are working on. I haven't got as far as finding out how to change the balance out yet for a different one.

You have to change out the whole box, don't you?

...that is, unless you go...electronic 😅

http://www.rataspari.com/index.php/products/hairspring-tool

...I believe a member here designed a box that fits your Luthy, too!

Edited by rehajm
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, kd8tzc said:

I think it would be incredibly cool to lathe your own parts.  Unfortunately, I have yet to see one that is inexpensive.

Keep looking, if you want it and it wants you then its somewhere waiting for you. And no I've not been smoking wacky backy, if the universe wants us to have something then it will find a way to get it to us.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Keep looking, if you want it and it wants you then its somewhere waiting for you. And no I've not been smoking wacky backy, if the universe wants us to have something then it will find a way to get it to us.

Are you sure, you haven't been smoking ? Or on shooms? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, rehajm said:

You have to change out the whole box, don't you?

...that is, unless you go...electronic 😅

http://www.rataspari.com/index.php/products/hairspring-tool

As far as i know its the full balance assembly including the balance cock. If its a ball ache changing or aquiring a different one then unlikely i will change it or even need to. The balance i had on top was a small Unitas 521 with a factory set frequency of 18,000. Held  just past the stud around midway of its end curve it was oscillating almost in time with the master balance. So I'm happy with that

46 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Are you sure, you haven't been smoking ? Or on shooms? 

No mate i dont need either,  I'm already there 🤪 haven't you figured that out yet. 🙃

1 hour ago, rehajm said:

..I believe a member here designed a box that fits your Luthy, too!

I believe it was Frank and something for me to think about for the future. 🙂 I also believe the cost of the electronic one is around 3 times my basic tool and equipment spend and double my entire watch service and repair spend. Er i think i will stick to my little Luthy unless one materialises on my doorstep one morning.  The universe does have limitations and watch tool miracle phenomena just might be one of them. 

Edited by Neverenoughwatches
Link to comment
Share on other sites

When you have a timegrapher, do you really need a Luthy?

I have replaced hairsprings on small clocks before. I just put the new hairspring on without cutting to length and observe over a few days. If it runs slow, shorten the spring. If it runs fast, then lengthen the spring. Once it approaches the correct timing, then I'll shape the end curve and time it again.

I wish I had a Microset clock timer, then adjusting clocks would be faster. But having the ability to record and log data on the computer over a few days would probably drive me nuts when the timing fluctuates due to temperature changes. 🤪

Edited by HectorLooi
Typo
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

When you have a timegrapher, do you really need a Luthy?

Probably not Hector but it does reduce the set up time and takes the guess work out of it. I also like the traditional ways, its something i wanted almost from the start. The opportunity arose to buy one at a very cheap price so i grabbed it. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

When you have a timegrapher, do you really need a Luthy?

I have replaced hairsprings on small clocks before. I just put the new hairspring on without cutting to length and observe over a few days. If it runs slow, shorten the spring. If it runs fast, then lengthen the spring. Once it approaches the correct timing, then I'll shape the end curve and time it again.

I wish I had a Microset clock timer, then adjusting clocks would be faster. But having the ability to record and log data on the computer over a few days would probably drive me nuts when the timing fluctuates due to temperature changes. 🤪

Thats more or less how I started building balance completes, sooner or later you will find a luthy tool a must have for serious percision work. 

Rgds

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, tomh207 said:

If only there was one definition of watchmaker 🤪😂

 

Tom

That did cross my mind when i said the true title of a watchmaker. So not wanting to belittle any of us including myself that doesn't make parts. As the skill required to change out, rectify and repair any part is immense. And neither take anything away from the pros that have spent years aquiring the skill to make parts daily. Just wanted to clarify my wording, i dont like to offend anyone unless they pee me off. We are all great here.

14 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Thats more or less how I started building balance completes, sooner or later you will find a luthy tool a must have for serious percision work. 

Rgds

Thanks Nucejoe, i appreciate the confirmation i haven't wasted money. It was actually a steel that came with loads of great items including overcoil tweezers.  I might have to pick your brains on how mine works. The case that holds the master balance doesnt seem to rotate separately from the main body of the Luthy ( maybe just its design ). So to start oscillation the whole tool has to be rotated back and forth to set the balance in motion. Also aquiring hairsprings, i seem to remember a year or so back you were looking at purchasing 1000 of them ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

When you have a timegrapher, do you really need a Luthy?

The problem with normal timing machines are  limited to  plus or minus how many seconds per day?  If you start vibrating a hairspring  a law hairspring you're going to be so far out the normal timing machine will not be able to time that you'll have to be much much closer.. Unless of course you have a witschi timing machine  or a clock timing machine that will do beats per hour..

Then if you needed a different platform  you can modify what is being shown on this webpage to fit the vibrating tool

https://watchmaking.weebly.com/hairspring-vibrating-tool.html

Of course you still need the this case Microset timing machine.

 

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

The problem with normal timing machines are  limited to  plus or minus how many seconds per day?

That's why I don't use a timing machine initially. Just watching it for an hour, it is visible whether it's fast or slow. Only when the timing gets within the ballpark, then I'll use a timegrapher. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Thanks Nucejoe, i appreciate the confirmation i haven't wasted money. It was actually a steel that came with loads of great items including overcoil tweezers.  I might have to pick your brains on how mine works. The case that holds the master balance doesnt seem to rotate separately from the main body of the Luthy ( maybe just its design ). So to start oscillation the whole tool has to be rotated back and forth to set the balance in motion. Also aquiring hairsprings, i seem to remember a year or so back you were looking at purchasing 1000 of them ?

Congrats on this truely grail tool, it pays for itself,  if you decide to vibrate rare pieces.

On behalf of myself I ask Frank @praezis for lessons on using this tool . Expect to see some vibrating tools he made himself, he seem to have a collection , actually of any tool I learn the name of. 

I am collecting damaged balance completes to scavange the hairspring off of, the type that the collet is laser welded onto,  which aren't  traditionally to be  re staff ed .

Rgds

 

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

The problem with normal timing machines are  limited to  plus or minus how many seconds per day?  If you start vibrating a hairspring  a law hairspring you're going to be so far out the normal timing machine will not be able to time that you'll have to be much much closer.. Unless of course you have a witschi timing machine  or a clock timing machine that will do beats per hour..

Then if you needed a different platform  you can modify what is being shown on this webpage to fit the vibrating tool

https://watchmaking.weebly.com/hairspring-vibrating-tool.html

Of course you still need the this case Microset timing machine.

 

Good link John. I'm starting to wonder if a strobe light used to set the ignition timing of a combustion engine has any application at all with hairspring timing 

6 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Congrats on this truely grail tool, it pays for itself,  if you decide to vibrate rare pieces.

On behalf of myself I ask Frank @praezis for lessons on using this tool . Expect to see some vibrating tools he made himself, he seem to have a collection , actually of any tool I learn the name of. 

I am collecting damaged balance completes to scavange the hairspring off of, the type that the collet is laser welded onto,  which aren't  traditionally to be  re staff ed .

Rgds

 

Do you clip the hairspring from the collet to reuse and repin to a different collet ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Do you clip the hairspring from the collet to reuse and repin to a different collet ?

One purpose of recolleting is to align the point that spring leaves the collet with the stud, obviously collet center is to fall on this  line of alignment.  In case the collet already aligns Ok, but it doesn't fit the staff, broach. 

I have seen collets just glued to the staff when its hole is too big.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Good link John. I'm starting to wonder if a strobe light used to set the ignition timing of a combustion engine has any application at all with hairspring timing 

You mean like an optical timing machine? The other option is high-speed camera like Which he did it probably some astronomical price

https://www.witschi.com/en/products/wisioscope-2/

Then I was once the linking of us strolled because at least it would let you look at the escapement was functioning at least that was the plan never quite got there.

7 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

it pays for itself,  if you decide to vibrate rare pieces.

Of course there still is a minor pesky problem of as rare as the tool is you still need the hairsprings, the collets and the pins but worst-case you could probably make those on a lathe. But once you're armed with those you can go into business it was once a profitable thing for people to vibrate replacement hairsprings and seeing as how I don't think anyone does it anymore for variety of reasons just think of all the watches you can save if you can vibrate the hairsprings.

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

You mean like an optical timing machine

Yes John basically a strobe light that flashes when a spark plug in a combustion engine fires. It shows how the adjustment of timing needs to be of the spark to coincide with the correct position of a piston on its combustion  stroke to obtain optimum performance. Now I've thought about it, i dont think it could be applied go timing a balance. It would have been a cool diy project.

3 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Of course there still is a minor pesky problem of as rare as the tool is you still need the hairsprings, the collets and the pins but worst-case you could probably make those on a lathe. But once you're armed with those you can go into business it was once a profitable thing for people to vibrate replacement hairsprings and seeing as how I don't think anyone does it anymore for variety of reasons just think of all the watches you can save if you can vibrate the hairsprings.

You can buy the hairsprings John, if you know what to ask for. I imagine a lot of trial and error to start with but once you have figured out how to calculate the strength ( torque ) per size thats required and the differences in materials. Just think of all that fun to be had and money to be made 😉. I know i want to have a go.

Screenshot_20230329-000244_Chrome.jpg

Edited by Neverenoughwatches
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

You can buy the hairsprings

Super that means the article I read in the British horological drill several years ago is wrong so good but I noticed hairsprings are all made out of phosphor bronze I wonder if that's going to be an issue?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

Super that means the article I read in the British horological drill several years ago is wrong so good but I noticed hairsprings are all made out of phosphor bronze I wonder if that's going to be an issue?

 Companies house still shows active directors ( very old )  but minimal assets so BPS is probably a dormant company. But this is from their site and Speedograph still have current opening hours, a working payment system via paypal and phone lines that i have just left a voice message on as it was before their opening times. Screenshot_20230329-070924_Chrome.thumb.jpg.0105817ebe03df6e6a11d6d902ca01de.jpg

Screenshot_20230329-070735_Chrome.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.



  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Topics

  • Posts

    • Many thanks for your advice (being borne in mind at present) & offer Dell. When I was given the clock the plastic anchor was loose on the arbour (it had split at the 'hole') &, after repairing this, I have been trying to determine whether the spindle (pin) should be perpendicular when the pallet is sitting on a flat surface; or whether, when installed, its L-R extremes (or alternatively its tick & tock points) should lie at equal angles from the vertical when moved with spring absent. I can get the clock to run but in every such configuration the top block has to be turned anti-clockwise (from above) by quite a bit in order to be 'in beat' & it always runs fast (despite the pendulum being set to as slow as possible). This makes me wonder if there is any particular feature of/fault in a torsion spring clock which determines which turn direction (if any) is necessary to get it 'in beat'; & whether there would be a different set of settings that would get it running nearer to time at somewhere around the mid timing/inertia position which would then allow tweaking of the fast/slow setting.
    • Now this has happened I bet China or India just to name two will start to produce none genuine parts.  I did. But idiot Boris Johnson failed miserably in his negotiations. The E U stitched up the UK like a kipper. Nigel Farage  offered his help but big head Boris declined. So this is why we are in this mess all because Johnson wasn't clever enough.  
    • Hands up all those who voted to leave the EU 😂, oopsie.  UK has just signed the Hague convention, next year that will provide cross border clout to British courts.
    • Ive heard about that oil before for the lever pins. I found it easy to work on , it didn't have a whole lot of pivot wear but i bit sloppy on the lever cock, i think you have to live with what you have or bin it. Stiff to wind and set ?  Not a cannon pinion issue that has no friction thats made up further back and if I remember the barrel drives the hour wheel. No problem on this one .Let me know when you start it as i have another that donated to this one, i can work alongside you with it, two heads are better than one. 
×
×
  • Create New...