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Adding another oil into servicing.


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Eyup watch peeps. My second query of the day. Up to now I've managed with just 3 Moebius oils and a grease for servicing as i only tinker around with basic movements. A thin oil   9010 (150 cst )  a thick oil   D5 ( 1200 cst ) and a specific oil for lubricating the pallet stones. But the jump in viscosity from 9010 to D5 is large so i would like to add in a mid viscosity oil. In between these 2 is D4 370cst    hp500 and hp 750.  My gut feeling is suggesting hp 500. This would accommodate barrels and center wheels on smaller than average watches and gear trains on larger than average watches. Any thoughts are appreciated TIA. 

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3 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

@Neverenoughwatches, Rich man, the way the watch fiddling world works you need a different oil or grease for every component. Get with the program man! 🤪😂

 

Tom

Lol yes i know Tom but I'm trying to keep the lubes simple as and I'm not prepared to spend any more cash this month 🙂. I have 75 items in my cousins basket and my grail watch repair tool arrived this week. I'll post it up later .

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It gets silly mate, bidding on a wolf Jahn cross slide that finishes tonight and I am way over my intended budget.

 

I don’t think you need to complicate it too much, if I am wrong I am sure John will point me in the right direction. 9010 for fast moving stuff, d5 for slower high torque stuff with no jewels, hp1300 for high torque stuff with jewels, 941(5) for pallet jewels then some moly one DX for things like keyless works. Mind you as amateur watch fiddlers I am not sure we even have to go that far.

 

but it is obsessive is’nt it 😂😀

 

Tom

1 minute ago, RichardHarris123 said:

What's wrong with engine oil with a bit of three in one.  Hehe. 

Or just some WD40 spritzed in the back 🤪😂

 

Tom

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1 hour ago, RichardHarris123 said:

What's wrong with engine oil with a bit of three in one.  Hehe. 

If only Rich if only 🙂

1 hour ago, tomh207 said:

It gets silly mate, bidding on a wolf Jahn cross slide that finishes tonight and I am way over my intended budget

Dont let me see that matey, i have the same lathe that only has a tool rest 🙂. 8mm but i think the beds are the same 

2 hours ago, tomh207 said:

bidding on a wolf Jahn cross slide that finishes tonight and I am way over my intended budget.

331 quid mate, you could nearly buy 2nd lathe for that. 

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34 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

I know, I’m the current winning bidder 😔

What is your top bid 4***1 ?  With 20 mins left to go the other guy might jump in at the end if you are starting to regret. It seems a lot but i honestly wouldnt know. Personally i would be putting the cash towards a bigger lathe and more complete. I missed out on a bargain last month, a beautiful complete production lathe.

7 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

20 summat minutes at the mo. I really hope @Neverenoughwatchesand I were bidding against each other 😂

 

Tom

Haha nope sorry matey i wouldnt be paying all that. 

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Bugger! I won it! Oh well beans and toast or pasta for the next 3 years.

 

Tom

21 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

What is your top bid 4***1 ?  With 20 mins left to go the other guy might jump in at the end if you are starting to regret. It seems a lot but i honestly wouldnt know. Personally i would be putting the cash towards a bigger lathe and more complete. I missed out on a bargain last month, a beautiful complete production lathe.

Haha nope sorry matey i wouldnt be paying all that. 

I hear you, but I like to put together something complete if I can, one of my personality traits I suppose. Now to find stuff from previous hobbies to flog off to keep up 😀

 

Tom

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15 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

Bugger! I won it! Oh well beans and toast or pasta for the next 3 years.

 

Tom

I hear you, but I like to put together something complete if I can, one of my personality traits I suppose. Now to find stuff from previous hobbies to flog off to keep up 😀

 

Tom

I would imagine that most of us who are into watches have similar traits.  Obsessive, compulsive, perfectionists etc. Basically weird, hehe. 

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4 hours ago, tomh207 said:

 

It gets silly mate, bidding on a wolf Jahn cross slide that finishes tonight and I am way over my intended budget

 

Hiiii, Tom 😂

6 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Any thoughts are appreciated TIA

If I may stray a bit off topic by staying on topic- if you need to satisfy a new oil fix. I saw Doktor Ranfft endorse this for escapements while proclaiming a 10-20 percent improvement in amplitude. I’ll concur with that level of improvement. Made a Smiths Empire run like a ‘jewel’

B61EF2ED-4CF6-4517-A0DD-E6C40005087E.jpeg

Edited by rehajm
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5 hours ago, tomh207 said:

moly one DX

I also use molykote DX . Apparently recommended by ETA .I think I've started to notice the oil ingredient can dry out . A bit of experimentation is in order with it. 

2 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Fight!!!

Nah too old and too wise for that, 10 years ago maybe.

2 hours ago, tomh207 said:

Bugger! I won it! Oh well beans and toast or pasta for the next 3 years.

Congratulations, you wanted it you got it. The price is a minor issue if its something that makes you happy and can take you up a level  Swings and roundabouts Tom, you will gain elsewhere. I occasionally overpay, just had two buys off ebay as a birthday treat to myself. One was ok kinda, the other was a cracking buy with loads of goodies that i didnt even notice in the photos. Or that where outside of the sellers shot. Bergeon items that i didnt realise were bergeon, everything else was quality beyond the images he presented.  And something I've been after for over a year. So it happens matey, just be pleased with your acquisition, you will get a lot of use from this. Curb your obsession for a while and enjoy what you have. Save up then launch again, its only money matey you can't take it with you  🙂

1 hour ago, rehajm said:

Hiiii, Tom 😂

If I may stray a bit off topic by staying on topic- if you need to satisfy a new oil fix. I saw Doktor Ranfft endorse this for escapements while proclaiming a 10-20 percent improvement in amplitude. I’ll concur with that level of improvement. Made a Smiths Empire run like a ‘jewel’

B61EF2ED-4CF6-4517-A0DD-E6C40005087E.jpeg

Thanks rehajm, i haven't heard of this. I was under the impression dr. Ranfft used just 1 oil and 1 grease ? Thats Interesting, Smiths are a favourite of mine. The Empire though to be a little harsh was a cheap model with no fuss inside from what was the biggest British watch company. You've done well just to get it running with any sort of timekeeping.

1 hour ago, rehajm said:

Hiiii, Tom 😂

If I may stray a bit off topic by staying on topic- if you need to satisfy a new oil fix. I saw Doktor Ranfft endorse this for escapements while proclaiming a 10-20 percent improvement in amplitude. I’ll concur with that level of improvement. Made a Smiths Empire run like a ‘jewel’

B61EF2ED-4CF6-4517-A0DD-E6C40005087E.jpeg

Ah ok yes i have heard of this dr. Tillwich etsyntha. Others have recommended this. I even have an ebay watch on a bottle of this oil for months. 

Screenshot_20230326-233037_eBay.jpg

Edited by Neverenoughwatches
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1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Thanks rehajm, i haven't heard of this. I was under the impression dr. Ranfft used just 1 oil and 1 grease ? Thats Interesting, Smiths are a favourite of mine. The Empire though to be a little harsh was a cheap model with no fuss inside from what was the biggest British watch company. You've done well just to get it running with any sort of timekeeping

Yes there was a fair amount of hammer and stake of the kind what makes a fine watchmaker cringe, the biggest challenge being no stud screw. I’m amazed and a bit proud of the CS Empire I posted elsewhere here- still can run 0/day on tg with beat less than 1. It was a star at a recent mixer where there were multiple Rolex and Panerai in attendance. Smiths are rare with us yanks…

Hopefully I’m not violating forum rules to post the referenced Ranfft rift…

"…the Tillwich homepage recommends the thinner variants of the K7132 for 
escapements. But I followed the recommendation from Flume, and after 
my experience they are right:

Although the K7132mv appears sticky, the amplitude of a fleshly cleaned 
movement increases between 10 an 20% after lubricating the outletting 
pallet top. So I guess it is a good compromise between high viskosity and 
low friction.

In pinlevers I apply twice or three times a drop to the to of a pin, this will 
run down to the contact between teeth and pin, and therefore spread 
uniformly over all teeth. I guess there is no hope that the oil will remain on 
the pins like in comparison on pallets.

Regards, Roland Ranfft"

Edited by rehajm
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12 minutes ago, rehajm said:

 

Yes there was a fair amount of hammer and stake of the kind what makes a fine watchmaker cringe, the biggest challenge being no stud screw. Still I’m amazed and a bit proud of the CS Empire I posted here- still losing 0/say with beat less than 1. It was a star at a recent mixer where there were multiple Rolex and Panerai in attendance. Smiths are rare with us yanks…

Hopefully I’m not violating forum rules to post the referenced Ranfft rift…

"…the Tillwich homepage recommends the thinner variants of the K7132 for 
escapements. But I followed the recommendation from Flume, and after 
my experience they are right:

Although the K7132mv appears sticky, the amplitude of a fleshly cleaned 
movement increases between 10 an 20% after lubricating the outletting 
pallet top. So I guess it is a good compromise between high viskosity and 
low friction.

In pinlevers I apply twice or three times a drop to the to of a pin, this will 
run down to the contact between teeth and pin, and therefore spread 
uniformly over all teeth. I guess there is no hope that the oil will remain on 
the pins like in comparison on pallets.

Regards, Roland Ranfft"

 Dr Ranfft. I dont think there's a problem posting information from his site . Everybody here uses it daily. When my batches of oil run low i may give this a try.

Edited by Neverenoughwatches
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16 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

A thin oil   9010 (150 cst )

The mistake you made was you should've bought 9020 in the first place. It works really well as a thin oil then you wouldn't have to buy in between oil.

Then you have to be careful with the early recommendations of lubrication's. Notice some of the recommended lubrication's up above are semi synthetic. So part synthetic And part what else? If you want to improve performance go to an organic lubrication they're usually better than synthetics but by being organic they have a much shorter life. So you have a compromise long life and a possibility of less performance versus higher performance short life.

Then there's the minor problem about viscosities. How thin do you really need. For instance you will find zero 9010 on my bench at work and yet I don't have amplitude issues with the watches I do but typically their pocket watches. 9020 seems to work just fine As the thin oil. Also the oil for most of the gear train.

 

 

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2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

The mistake you made was you should've bought 9020 in the first place. It works really well as a thin oil then you wouldn't have to buy in between oil.

Then you have to be careful with the early recommendations of lubrication's. Notice some of the recommended lubrication's up above are semi synthetic. So part synthetic And part what else? If you want to improve performance go to an organic lubrication they're usually better than synthetics but by being organic they have a much shorter life. So you have a compromise long life and a possibility of less performance versus higher performance short life.

Then there's the minor problem about viscosities. How thin do you really need. For instance you will find zero 9010 on my bench at work and yet I don't have amplitude issues with the watches I do but typically their pocket watches. 9020 seems to work just fine As the thin oil. Also the oil for most of the gear train.

 

 

Good morning John but I'm guessing you are asleep or should be at 2 o'clock am. Seattle . So Something on your favourite subject of watch lubrication. I still haven't decided which oil to choose for inbetween but was actually starting to lean towards 9020 until i read through the Moebius website you linked earlier. Most other oils listed they give a guidence on their various properties required - aging,stability, lubricity, pressure resistance and adherence. With a guidence ranging from good - excellent- outstanding to remarkable. With the 9020 Moebius gives no indication as to its adherence ability which seems odd. Either by chance overlooked or specifically avoided ? . Where as the 9024 with a very slight drop in viscosity does quote a remarkable adherence, a better choice i wonder.

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12 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I'm guessing you are asleep or should be at 2 o'clock am. Seattle

Your guessing incorrectly if I was a sane person you're right I should be sound asleep. Ideally I should be a sound asleep before 2 AM but I'm not. I'm currently doing my favorite pastime of watching YouTube and just happened to check my emails in between videos. Which then causes me to drop into a black hole and suddenly time jumps ahead much much faster if I'm on this group versus looking at YouTube videos.

I'm not 100% sure what you're looking at on the website. I did snip out some images and got some PDFs for you. The problem with their guides in my mind are they don't give maybe all the information we need to know. Like from personal experience 9010 needs epilam if it's supposed to stay wherever it's supposed to be. Is also supported by all technical literature. But 9020 seems to stay where you put it. True I haven't tested hundreds thousands millions of watches only a small sampling of personal watches where 9020 was still there and 9010 was not.

Then I snipped out something for the product catalog.

I do find it technical literature a bit lacking of whatever it is I would like to see. So for instance you compare 9010 and 9020 they basically appear to be identical except the viscosity.Then 9024 versus 9020 slightly better lubrication but slightly less grip. Then I have zero idea what the consequences of both of those would be. What about some of the other ones that look interesting like 9026 versus 9024 almost exactly identical except It has a little bit of MoS2? Then of course that turns the lubricant a dark color but it seems like it should increase the efficiency of the lubricant having that in their.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molybdenum_disulfide

So yes there are other interesting lubricants out there.

 

interesting that lubrication choices.JPG

tinf_9020_en_1.pdf tinf_9026_en_0.pdf tinf_9024_en_0.pdf MoebiusProductCatalogEN.pdf

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1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

Your guessing incorrectly if I was a sane person you're right I should be sound asleep. Ideally I should be a sound asleep before 2 AM but I'm not. I'm currently doing my favorite pastime of watching YouTube and just happened to check my emails in between videos. Which then causes me to drop into a black hole and suddenly time jumps ahead much much faster if I'm on this group versus looking at YouTube videos.

I'm not 100% sure what you're looking at on the website. I did snip out some images and got some PDFs for you. The problem with their guides in my mind are they don't give maybe all the information we need to know. Like from personal experience 9010 needs epilam if it's supposed to stay wherever it's supposed to be. Is also supported by all technical literature. But 9020 seems to stay where you put it. True I haven't tested hundreds thousands millions of watches only a small sampling of personal watches where 9020 was still there and 9010 was not.

Then I snipped out something for the product catalog.

I do find it technical literature a bit lacking of whatever it is I would like to see. So for instance you compare 9010 and 9020 they basically appear to be identical except the viscosity.Then 9024 versus 9020 slightly better lubrication but slightly less grip. Then I have zero idea what the consequences of both of those would be. What about some of the other ones that look interesting like 9026 versus 9024 almost exactly identical except It has a little bit of MoS2? Then of course that turns the lubricant a dark color but it seems like it should increase the efficiency of the lubricant having that in their.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molybdenum_disulfide

So yes there are other interesting lubricants out there.

 

interesting that lubrication choices.JPG

tinf_9020_en_1.pdf 480.03 kB · 1 download tinf_9026_en_0.pdf 481.37 kB · 1 download tinf_9024_en_0.pdf 474.79 kB · 1 download MoebiusProductCatalogEN.pdf 1.65 MB · 1 download

Thanks John your post shows via the pie chart indicators and pdfs the missing information on the wording of both the Moebius website and your post. They dont detail the 9020 adherence ability. I wondered if it was left out on purpose in a similar fashion that the mineral oils dont mention their aging ability.  This is what i was looking at. 

Screenshot_20230327-122340_Samsung Internet.jpg

Edited by Neverenoughwatches
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5 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I wondered if it was left out on purpose in a similar fashion that the mineral oils dont mention their aging ability.  This is what i was looking at. 

If you think this is confusing what about this lubrication at the link below

Let me highlight the important things from the link below. It comes in a larger bottle such much cheaper than the normal oil we use. The viscosity is 110 is makes it more fluid than 9010. So this is a extremely light oil but look at its description it's good for "Synthetic oil especially developed for alarm clocks & pendulum clocks. Can also be used for watch escapements" So apparently oil Lighter than 9010 is ideal for clocks or watch escapement's?

Then while you're there you can get the spec sheet.So the definition of synthetic is neat's foot oil which is not synthetic that I'm aware of. I believe that would be an organic components. Then the rest of it is paraffin oil which I suppose could be synthetic.

I'm also attaching the lubrication chart test specifications.. Specifications and you'll notice all the lubricants are superthin and the chart really doesn't make a lot of sense at all. Which is the typical problem with descriptions of horological lubrication's of basically descriptions in the technical specs suck. Normally were stuck with the viscosity but even here the viscosities are way too light and yet the light oils can be used for clocks so viscosity apparently flies out the window for making decisions. On the other hand the oil below is a lot cheaper. So it isn't entirely sympathetic like it says on the website.

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/novostar-type-r

Oh and then 9021 of my watchmaking friends said 9020 was obsolete. Because of you look at a lot of modern tech sheets it's no longer shown as a lubricant. It's basically 9010 and HP oils.

Oh and there was something bothering me about 9024? Notice at the link below if you go to the top of the page it's in the category of lubrication for Synthetic Oils for Polymers?  Then those pesky words again because look at the description that cousins hasWhere the oil is good for high temperatures we don't really care about that.But it's back to the reference of is used for plastics? So it looks nice on the spec sheet where it doesn't really bring up the plastics aspect. Okay I got oh improve my reading skills if you go to the PDF for 9024 and read the wonderful  words it says at the end of the paragraph is says for plastics. But the technical features in addition to the word plastics they do have the word metal.

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/moebius-9024-syntaviscolube?code=O1073

So if you want to go insane read all the technical descriptions on the cousins website of everything related the horological oil and see if you can figure out what would be a suitable one to use for anything?

Oh maybe a book would be helpful? Yes it's a little out of date synthetics didn't exist but still it's of interest.

https://archive.org/details/frictionlubricat00lewi

 

 

 

Novostar lubrication chart.JPG

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 3/27/2023 at 6:44 PM, JohnR725 said:

If you think this is confusing what about this lubrication at the link below

Let me highlight the important things from the link below. It comes in a larger bottle such much cheaper than the normal oil we use. The viscosity is 110 is makes it more fluid than 9010. So this is a extremely light oil but look at its description it's good for "Synthetic oil especially developed for alarm clocks & pendulum clocks. Can also be used for watch escapements" So apparently oil Lighter than 9010 is ideal for clocks or watch escapement's?

Then while you're there you can get the spec sheet.So the definition of synthetic is neat's foot oil which is not synthetic that I'm aware of. I believe that would be an organic components. Then the rest of it is paraffin oil which I suppose could be synthetic.

I'm also attaching the lubrication chart test specifications.. Specifications and you'll notice all the lubricants are superthin and the chart really doesn't make a lot of sense at all. Which is the typical problem with descriptions of horological lubrication's of basically descriptions in the technical specs suck. Normally were stuck with the viscosity but even here the viscosities are way too light and yet the light oils can be used for clocks so viscosity apparently flies out the window for making decisions. On the other hand the oil below is a lot cheaper. So it isn't entirely sympathetic like it says on the website.

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/novostar-type-r

Oh and then 9021 of my watchmaking friends said 9020 was obsolete. Because of you look at a lot of modern tech sheets it's no longer shown as a lubricant. It's basically 9010 and HP oils.

Oh and there was something bothering me about 9024? Notice at the link below if you go to the top of the page it's in the category of lubrication for Synthetic Oils for Polymers?  Then those pesky words again because look at the description that cousins hasWhere the oil is good for high temperatures we don't really care about that.But it's back to the reference of is used for plastics? So it looks nice on the spec sheet where it doesn't really bring up the plastics aspect. Okay I got oh improve my reading skills if you go to the PDF for 9024 and read the wonderful  words it says at the end of the paragraph is says for plastics. But the technical features in addition to the word plastics they do have the word metal.

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/moebius-9024-syntaviscolube?code=O1073

So if you want to go insane read all the technical descriptions on the cousins website of everything related the horological oil and see if you can figure out what would be a suitable one to use for anything?

Oh maybe a book would be helpful? Yes it's a little out of date synthetics didn't exist but still it's of interest.

https://archive.org/details/frictionlubricat00lewi

 

 

 

Novostar lubrication chart.JPG

🙂 i like the way you said its a little out of date. Almost 130 years out of date. Still interesting though thanks John 

On 3/27/2023 at 6:44 PM, JohnR725 said:

If you think this is confusing what about this lubrication at the link below

Let me highlight the important things from the link below. It comes in a larger bottle such much cheaper than the normal oil we use. The viscosity is 110 is makes it more fluid than 9010. So this is a extremely light oil but look at its description it's good for "Synthetic oil especially developed for alarm clocks & pendulum clocks. Can also be used for watch escapements" So apparently oil Lighter than 9010 is ideal for clocks or watch escapement's?

Then while you're there you can get the spec sheet.So the definition of synthetic is neat's foot oil which is not synthetic that I'm aware of. I believe that would be an organic components. Then the rest of it is paraffin oil which I suppose could be synthetic.

I'm also attaching the lubrication chart test specifications.. Specifications and you'll notice all the lubricants are superthin and the chart really doesn't make a lot of sense at all. Which is the typical problem with descriptions of horological lubrication's of basically descriptions in the technical specs suck. Normally were stuck with the viscosity but even here the viscosities are way too light and yet the light oils can be used for clocks so viscosity apparently flies out the window for making decisions. On the other hand the oil below is a lot cheaper. So it isn't entirely sympathetic like it says on the website.

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/novostar-type-r

Oh and then 9021 of my watchmaking friends said 9020 was obsolete. Because of you look at a lot of modern tech sheets it's no longer shown as a lubricant. It's basically 9010 and HP oils.

Oh and there was something bothering me about 9024? Notice at the link below if you go to the top of the page it's in the category of lubrication for Synthetic Oils for Polymers?  Then those pesky words again because look at the description that cousins hasWhere the oil is good for high temperatures we don't really care about that.But it's back to the reference of is used for plastics? So it looks nice on the spec sheet where it doesn't really bring up the plastics aspect. Okay I got oh improve my reading skills if you go to the PDF for 9024 and read the wonderful  words it says at the end of the paragraph is says for plastics. But the technical features in addition to the word plastics they do have the word metal.

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/moebius-9024-syntaviscolube?code=O1073

So if you want to go insane read all the technical descriptions on the cousins website of everything related the horological oil and see if you can figure out what would be a suitable one to use for anything?

Oh maybe a book would be helpful? Yes it's a little out of date synthetics didn't exist but still it's of interest.

https://archive.org/details/frictionlubricat00lewi

 

 

 

Novostar lubrication chart.JPG

Just wondered if you've seen this before John ? In the old book you've Iinked, the balance cap jewels used to be laid dome side down on the jewel bearing. With the theory that the lubrication held in place better. 

Screenshot_20230406-124051_Samsung Internet.jpg

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