L&R Wave breakers

[TitleSeventeen]

Just what are these things? They're separate of the star shaped baffles. Look like a metal C with a stick sticking up off it.

I have part of one though the stem of it seems to be broken off

[JohnR725]

13 hours ago, TitleSeventeen said:

Just what are these things? They're separate of the star shaped baffles. Look like a metal C with a stick sticking up off it.

I have part of one though the stem of it seems to be broken off

As good as our imagination can be it would be nice to have a picture.

But without the picture I can go with the title of L&R Wave breakers. In a cleaning machine it with a round jar when the baskets spinning the fluid has a habit of spinning with the basket which is undesirable. So the star shaped part goes in the bottom of the jar and the stick like thing as you referred to it sticking up would go along the edge of the jar to try to keep the fluid from spinning and it also deflects some of the fluid in towards the middle. But others probably haven't seen what it looks like it be nice to have a picture

[TitleSeventeen]

Here's ones I found in an ebay listing

[RichardHarris123]

They look like they fit the jar. For handling when hot?

[JohnR725]

So we can have a better idea of what the wave breaker is supposed to look like I inserted it in the one of the jars which I found is rather difficult to get it perfect which may explain why they're not in the jars.

Then I have an image out of a PDF of a modern machine they use something a little difference but same terminology.

The purpose of these things are to break up the spinning wave that forms when the basket is spinning in the solution. Otherwise the solution will spin with the basket and not clean as effective if you could somehow stop them. It's why a lot of machines will stop spinning and in go back the other direction.

[RichardHarris123]

It doesn't explain the circular bit with the handle though. 

[TitleSeventeen]

I would guess that just helps it stay upright in the jar, Maybe its not used in the MasterMatics and beyond since they go both directions on their own?

I have some of the little star things that from what I understand were supposed to do a similar task. But If i should have them then i'll track down some.

My machine is a Late 40s L&R Master for reference.  

[JohnR725]

To get a better idea of what these are designed to do here is a link with a nice video

https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/25955-diy-cleaning-machine/#comment-215455

 

[Geotex]

So, I see many people in relatively modern photos and videos who have installed the side baffles with the ring side down in L&R jars, as shown above. But looking at situations where jars looked to have been put away along time ago and not disturbed or disassembled, they are often ring side up. The old owners manuals state that the baffles and stars were shipped already placed in the jar, so they assume the orientation was self-evident...

Trying both orientations, ring side up seems to involve much less fiddling around to get them in and out. It also puts the slight lean-in they seem to have at the bottom of the jar next to the star where it makes more sense, and the notch ends up just below the lettering at the depth where the wider lid section of the basket will sit. I'm inclined to use them that way, although from a fluid dynamics standpoint it may not really make much difference.  Anybody know anything definitive?

[Neverenoughwatches]

16 hours ago, Geotex said:

So, I see many people in relatively modern photos and videos who have installed the side baffles with the ring side down in L&R jars, as shown above. But looking at situations where jars looked to have been put away along time ago and not disturbed or disassembled, they are often ring side up. The old owners manuals state that the baffles and stars were shipped already placed in the jar, so they assume the orientation was self-evident...

Trying both orientations, ring side up seems to involve much less fiddling around to get them in and out. It also puts the slight lean-in they seem to have at the bottom of the jar next to the star where it makes more sense, and the notch ends up just below the lettering at the depth where the wider lid section of the basket will sit. I'm inclined to use them that way, although from a fluid dynamics standpoint it may not really make much difference.  Anybody know anything definitive?

Square jars seem to work well, instead of the fluid just spinning round in an un baffled jar it looks to buffer against the corners of a square jar. I found some good sized square and ribbed jars in the Uk if anyone is interested. 

[LittleWatchShop]

16 hours ago, Geotex said:

So, I see many people in relatively modern photos and videos who have installed the side baffles with the ring side down in L&R jars, as shown above. But looking at situations where jars looked to have been put away along time ago and not disturbed or disassembled, they are often ring side up. The old owners manuals state that the baffles and stars were shipped already placed in the jar, so they assume the orientation was self-evident...

Trying both orientations, ring side up seems to involve much less fiddling around to get them in and out. It also puts the slight lean-in they seem to have at the bottom of the jar next to the star where it makes more sense, and the notch ends up just below the lettering at the depth where the wider lid section of the basket will sit. I'm inclined to use them that way, although from a fluid dynamics standpoint it may not really make much difference.  Anybody know anything definitive?

That is how mine are installed

[JohnR725]

6 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Square jars seem to work well

somewhere in the heiress I heard that there is ongoing bickering over square versus round.

What's interesting about the various wave breakers is that not all machines have them. I was looking to see if I had a L&R manual showing of them and strangely enough the automatic machines don't seem to have them at all?

then for home use many years ago I was given the black classic L&R machine without jars because for a time span there are considered worthless. then I acquired the jars many years later and as yet I still haven't got around to using the machine at home. Because I can occasionally clean a watch at work with a really nice machine so it's not a priority project. But my jars did come with the wave breakers. Then attempting to put the breakers in on the bottom seem to be a problematic pain in the asked job and just now trying they do seem to fit a lot nicer on the top of the jar.

Although there is a certain advantage of having the fluid spin with the watch. which would be spinning in one direction until the fluids catch up stopping and angling of the other direction. Although one of the machines that I saw doing that seem to be very rapidly going back and forth so there's a whole variety of procedures for cleaning in addition to the square versus round jar controversy. Especially if your machine has a round hole how would you get the square jar in?

 

[RichardHarris123]

I have mulled this over, " come on Richard, remember all the fluid dynamics you studied and practiced ". I have come to the conclusion that without Computational Fluid Dynamics or Empirical data, a definitive answer is impossible.  I think that what the fluid is doing outside the basket is irrelevant, it's what's happening within.  The basket has compartments and micro-baskets which will cause turbulence, which is what we are seeking.  My guess is any external baffles are unnecessary. 

[Geotex]

The early open-frame Juniors and Masters used the Hamilton Beach mixer motors that were unidirectional with no reversing function. If you can't oscillate, then even at relatively slow speeds the fluids will vortex and form a depression that can affect the fluid level inside the basket and leave things dry.  A baffle in this case makes a big difference. The later models with manual reverse switches or auto-reversing switches built into the jar shroud would have made this less of an issue, so maybe they stopped issuing the jar baffles. 

There is a similar vertical baffle installed on the motor hanging down into the jar parallel with the basket shaft on some of these L&R early models, but I don't know if that was meant to be used INSTEAD of a vertical jar baffle or IN ADDITION to a jar baffle. I don't have a full set of vertical baffles, so in the spirit of "more must be better" I'll use both in the cleaning stage where turbulence would be most useful and leave the rinses with justnthe motor baffle.

[Michael1962]

I would think that if the baskets had say three 'wings' on the basket which start at the top of the basket in the direction of spin and then curve along the basket outer toward the bottom, the effect of that would be to force liquid down toward the bottom of the jar and disrupt the wjhirlpool effect that a spinning basket in a round jar has.

The liquid being pushed down along the outer of the jar would then have to circulate and would do that via the centre of the jar in a perpendicular direction to the rotation of the jar.

I don't have one of these cleaners so I can't test my theory, which is all that it is.

That also might be me just trying to look smarter than I really am.

Edited April 8 by Michael1962

[LittleWatchShop]

17 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Especially if your machine has a round hole how would you get the square jar in?

You saved this for the end of your discourse, lol