Bergeon 30209 Screw extractor tool

[rossjackson01]

Information and advice please.

Can the Bergeon 30209 Screw extractor tool be used on left hand thread screws? Being a Numpty, have an arbor which has a right hand thread hole, and I have inadvertently put a left hand thread screw into it. I broke the head off. This was a year ago, and I now feel capable of attempting the removal. I'm thinking of purchasing a Bergeon 30209 type extractor tool. There are only a couple of videos on Youtube that show its use. They all show a right hand thread removal, hence my question. Can anyone help with a definitive answer please?

I am looking at https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/303929478194

Thank you

Ross

[oldhippy]

The answer is yes. This video shows you how you use the tool. 

 

[Watchoutnow]

However, you may have cross threaded the arbor and you may need to replace it. Find a replacement part or buy an assortment of arbors...all cheaper than buying a Bergeon tool.

[rossjackson01]

20 minutes ago, Watchoutnow said:

However, you may have cross threaded the arbor and you may need to replace it. Find a replacement part or buy an assortment of arbors...all cheaper than buying a Bergeon tool.

It's from a pocket watch. BTC. No replacements available. I don't have the facility to make an arbor. Watching the video, I think it may do left by changing the direction of the rotation.  Thank you for that. 

Edited March 19, 2023 by rossjackson01

[RichardHarris123]

31 minutes ago, rossjackson01 said:

It's from a pocket watch. BTC. No replacements available. I don't have the facility to make an arbor. Watching the video, I think it may do left by changing the direction of the rotation.  Thank you for that. 

Why does the screw look so eccentric? 

[HectorLooi]

The screw extractor is designed for removing screws from thin plates, where the hole goes through the plate and the broken screw is accessible from both sides. 

Unfortunately, a barrel arbor has a blind end hole. The screw extractor cannot grip the broken screw from both ends. This is why you never hear of anyone attempting to use this tool to remove a broken winding stem from a crown.

Your best bet would be to use a tungsten carbide spade drill and drill a hole in to the broken screw by hand, then wedge a tapered square rod into the hole and try to unscrew the broken piece. 

It might be better to wait for a donor movement to show up on eBay.

[rossjackson01]

25 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Why does the screw look so eccentric? 

I've had a look through my x15 and the screw is actually central. It's an opitc error in the photograph. 

5 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

The screw extractor is designed for removing screws from thin plates, where the hole goes through the plate and the broken screw is accessible from both sides. 

Unfortunately, a barrel arbor has a blind end hole. The screw extractor cannot grip the broken screw from both ends. This is why you never hear of anyone attempting to use this tool to remove a broken winding stem from a crown.

Your best bet would be to use a tungsten carbide spade drill and drill a hole in to the broken screw by hand, then wedge a tapered square rod into the hole and try to unscrew the broken piece. 

It might be better to wait for a donor movement to show up on eBay.

Thank you. Don't have the skill to do what you have suggested. I've been looking since December 2021 for a donor without success. The joys of watch repair. Ah well.

[Watchoutnow]

This movement looks similar to a typical Swiss one like a Unitas 431 or 6431/6445, you might find a match in an assortment pack...I recently bought such an assortment for usd 7.00. If you cross threaded or striped the arbor you'll need to rethread it, which doesn't sound practical. Measure the barrel size and look up the barrel sizes for a comparable Swiss movement and see if you get a match. Then try the arbor for that movement. I have a movement that's labeled "Cal 32A" but it's just a UT6431 variant-probably a private label. Check the specs on Rantff's page.

[Waggy]

I'm thinking the arbor is hardened steel so I'm assuming the alum trick would not work??

[RichardHarris123]

Could try gluing a nut to it with apoxy.

[Neverenoughwatches]

7 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

I've had a look through my x15 and the screw is actually central. It's an opitc error in the photograph. 

Thank you. Don't have the skill to do what you have suggested. I've been looking since December 2021 for a donor without success. The joys of watch repair. Ah well.

I think Hector has a good cheap answer here. A set of cheap carbide drill bits ranging from 0.1mm to 1.0mm will cost you around a fiver from ebay Manually drill the screw using 2 pin vices to hold the arbor and drill bit. You will be drilling in the direction that the screw needs to come out. Yes it will be time consuming but you maybe lucky and the drill may bite and unwind the screw while you drill. You may also be unlucky and the drill bit snaps or it winds the screw further in .I would work up in two sizes of drill bit,one small enough to start accurately in the center of the screw. Just to give you a shallow start ( too deep and it will likely break the drill bit ) for a larger one that is just short in diameter of catching the threads. Dip the drill bits in some cutting oil as you progress, take your time and back off when you feel resistance. When you have something of a hole,  use a very short cutting broach or similar in a pin vice to jam into the hole. Not to cut but looking for something to grip the screw. Hopefully this will give you enough purchase to unwind  the screw. Here are the drill bits i got for a fiver i thought reasonable quality with good cutting edges. Cutting broaches you can pick them up cheaply secondhand on ebay fairly regularly.  Always come in handy. If you are in a rush i have dozens of them and can send you something useful. Obviously it needs to be cut short or the broach will twist and possibly snap. Good luck Ross.

Edited March 20, 2023 by Neverenoughwatches

[rossjackson01]

3 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I think Hector has a good cheap answer here. A set of cheap carbide drill bits ranging from 0.1mm to 1.0mm will cost you around a fiver from ebay. 

Thank you for that. I have marked a set for purchase. Getting up my courage. Also going to get a small desk vice. Gosh. Tools, tools, tools....

7 hours ago, Waggy said:

I'm thinking the arbor is hardened steel so I'm assuming the alum trick would not work??

I think you are correct. I did purchase some Alum but was advised against it for the reason you have given.

4 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Could try gluing a nut to it with apoxy.

A nut? t sure what you mean. I was going to set the barrel in place, put the ratchet wheel and glue the screw top in place on the arbor (I still have the head of the screw). This will be a last resort. Prefer to do the job properly.

11 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

It might be better to wait for a donor movement to show up on eBay.

Thank you HectorLooi

Can you Adam and Eve it (believe it - cockney rhyming slang) I have just found two very similar movements on ebay. Put offers in. Thank you for the push. Train barrel is different on one The locations of the mainspring barrel and crown wheel are reversed on the other. Would be worth it for the parts.

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

Thank you for that. I have marked a set for purchase. Getting up my courage. Also going to get a small desk vice. Gosh. Tools, tools, tools....

I would say you are going to have to back the screw out the opposite way it went in regardless of the arbor thread. Hopefully it isn't too far in and the arbor thread is repairable, will maybe even cut in with a another screw of the same size. Haha yep tools I've always been a gadget man with being a joiner. I'm only in a year and a half in and my tool collection looks to be at least x5 what it should be. Carboots are a great way of picking up tweezers, pliers, needle files, small vices, magnifiers for very little money. I even found a small Russian scope last year for 20 quid but too powerful for basic work, great for very close jewel and pivot inspection though. Keep us informed.

[HectorLooi]

I don't recommend these tungsten carbide drills. They are extremely brittle. I have had some broken just by rolling off my microscope table onto the my glass table top. That is like 2 inch high.

Take a tungsten carbide blank rod and sharpen it yourself. They are much tougher. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

15 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

I don't recommend these tungsten carbide drills. They are extremely brittle. I have had some broken just by rolling off my microscope table onto the my glass table top. That is like 2 inch high.

Take a tungsten carbide blank rod and sharpen it yourself. They are much tougher. 

That brittle Hector ? I'm  surprised, i have seen them used a while ago to drill for a staff repivot. I haven't tested the smaller ones yet, above 0.6mm seemed to drill holes in some jumper springs ok. Maybe some caution in order then Ross.

[nickelsilver]

They're strong when used just right. On something like this barrel arbor, even with a lathe, the surface of the broken screw would need to be flattened and a proper center made before any hope of the drill cutting without breaking. Like Hector said, a simple spade drill is stronger and more resistant to breakage. But, you need a way to grind carbide. If I was to try this, I would skip the drill and (after flattening), use a carbide end mill. Painfully expensive though at around 35 bucks each.

[Neverenoughwatches]

12 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

If I was to try this, I would skip the drill and (after flattening), use a carbide end mill. Painfully expensive though at around

Cousins sell pearl drills, are these similar ? A bit meatier and less likely to break. Easier to remove if they do ?

Edited March 20, 2023 by Neverenoughwatches

[nickelsilver]

27 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Cousins sell pearl drills, are these similar ? A bit meatier and less likely to break. Easier to remove if they do ?

 

Those are along the lines of a spade drill, but probably optimized for drilling- pearls. Not sure if they're carbide?

 

This is a "big" one I ground, 1mm; I don't usually do such a pronounced waist but this was to drill out a screw in a rare case, and the waist really helps get it out if it breaks. This was done on a carbide tool grinder, but they can be done freehand, grind basically like a screwdriver, add a bit of waist, the grind the two angled faces for the cutting edges. A square head pinvice helps to "index" in your fingers.

 

 

Edited March 20, 2023 by nickelsilver

[HectorLooi]

I had no idea that Busch made such drills. We used a lot of Busch products in dentistry. They have a huge inventory of steel burs. I sometimes recycle my blunt burs and use the steel for turning into parts.

[rossjackson01]

8 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

Thank you for that. I have marked a set for purchase. Getting up my courage. Also going to get a small desk vice. Gosh. Tools, tools, tools....

I think you are correct. I did purchase some Alum but was advised against it for the reason you have given.

A nut? t sure what you mean. I was going to set the barrel in place, put the ratchet wheel and glue the screw top in place on the arbor (I still have the head of the screw). This will be a last resort. Prefer to do the job properly.

Thank you HectorLooi

Can you Adam and Eve it (believe it - cockney rhyming slang) I have just found two very similar movements on ebay. Put offers in. Thank you for the push. Train barrel is different on one The locations of the mainspring barrel and crown wheel are reversed on the other. Would be worth it for the parts.

Update

2 movements found on ebay and ordered. They had been in the sellers draw for over 10 years and only placed for sale this week. 

Thank you Hector Looi. I'm going away for the week. I will let you all know what happens on return. Thank you everyone.

[Neverenoughwatches]

5 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

I had no idea that Busch made such drills. We used a lot of Busch products in dentistry. They have a huge inventory of steel burs. I sometimes recycle my blunt burs and use the steel for turning into parts.

i have a lot of these burrs in my cousins basket ready to order.