Weird timegrapher results - Vostok 2414A

[Fralex]

Can somebody tell me what is wrong with this movement. I see that amplitude is a bit low, but it is nothing unexpected from used Vostok movement. It has been freshly serviced, but the line on the timegrapher seems weird.

P.S. The watch has also been demagnetized.

[JohnR725]

9 hours ago, Fralex said:

It has been freshly serviced

What is your definition of freshly serviced mean?

[Fralex]

58 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

What is your definition of freshly serviced mean?

I serviced it couple days ago. After the service the amplitude has improved from 180 to approx 230, but the rate is still unstable as indicated by zig-zag timgrapeher line. So I was wondering what is wrong with this movement?

[JohnR725]

I have a link where someone else's serviced one you'll notice it does not get stellar results.

https://17jewels.info/movements/w/wostok/wostok-2414a/

Then it will be nice to have a few more images of different positions for diagnostic purposes. I'm assuming you're timing it dial down then another one recorded dial up and then crown down the see if there's any differences

I'm also attaching a PDF with some helpful information.  Notice how 7 and 10 are similar because basically the same thing except 7 is only one side of the escapement and 10 is both sides.

So it basically looks like uneven power and escapement issues. 

 

 

Timing-Machine-Charts.PDF

[rossjackson01]

51 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

I'm also attaching a PDF with some helpful information. 

Timing-Machine-Charts.PDF 5.32 MB · 0 downloads

What an excellent .pdf. Thank you. It explains a number of problems that I have seen with my 'thank you Mr seller for allowing me to purchase a watch that you have obviously worked on, put back together incorrectly and with parts missing'. It really is a helpful .pdf for information.

I've put a link in my favourites 'learning tips' folder.

Once again John. You are a gem.

Regards

Ross

Edited March 12, 2023 by rossjackson01
spelling

[Fralex]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

I have a link where someone else's serviced one you'll notice it does not get stellar results.

https://17jewels.info/movements/w/wostok/wostok-2414a/

Then it will be nice to have a few more images of different positions for diagnostic purposes. I'm assuming you're timing it dial down then another one recorded dial up and then crown down the see if there's any differences

I'm also attaching a PDF with some helpful information.  Notice how 7 and 10 are similar because basically the same thing except 7 is only one side of the escapement and 10 is both sides.

So it basically looks like uneven power and escapement issues. 

 

 

Timing-Machine-Charts.PDF 5.32 MB · 4 downloads

Thanks for helping me. The rate was recorded in only one position - Dial Up and still the rate changes randomly on its own. In different positions the rate is even wilder. I will try to replace pallet fork and escapement wheel (I have spares lying around somewhere) and report back the result.

[rossjackson01]

1 hour ago, Fralex said:

Thanks for helping me. The rate was recorded in only one position - Dial Up and still the rate changes randomly on its own. In different positions the rate is even wilder. I will try to replace pallet fork and escapement wheel (I have spares lying around somewhere) and report back the result.

Let us know how you get on. It's nice when someone updates with a result, positive or negative.

Edited March 12, 2023 by rossjackson01
grammar

[Fralex]

So, after replacing the escapement wheel and pallet fork rate hasn't changed. I also checked the train wheels and balance for end shake and everything seemed fine. My only conclusion is that balance is out of poise or it has a problem with isochronism which is beyond my ability to repair.

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, Fralex said:

My only conclusion is that balance is out of poise or it has a problem with isochronism which is beyond my ability to repair.

I suspect those problems are not what you're having at all.

Poising errors only show up if you time the watch in the pendant/crown positions. In other words crown up crown down crown left crown right and have differences there that can be a police issue but you're only timing dial down you will not see the poise issues at all.

3 hours ago, Fralex said:

So, after replacing the escapement wheel and pallet fork rate hasn't changed.

Why did you change the escape wheel and pallet fork? Then typically they don't cause a rate changes rates are determined by the balance wheel and hairspring. But they will cause running issues.

If you're dealing with other vintage watch swapping components can be a bad thing because they're usually assembled together they usually adjusted together and they really ideally should function together. When mass production got better you can start swapping components but this watch is not of that quality I would be concerned of swapping escapement components will lead to running issues.

3 hours ago, Fralex said:

I also checked the train wheels and balance for end shake and everything seemed fine. My only conclusion is that balance is out of poise or it has a problem with isochronism which is beyond my ability to repair.

In addition to checking for end shake did you check to see that the wheels turn freely and effortlessly? In other words when the pallet fork is out if you start the wind the watch does a watch instantly starts spinning its train or is there a hesitation or a lack of it doesn't want to move right away?

Then because you didn't say which are skill set is making the assumption that you're new to watch repair and the problem is we get a problem like this you'll start looking for obscure things like isochronism and what exactly do you think isochronism is it anyway?

What was the condition of the watch in before you service did? In other words was a running did you put on the timing machine how did it look etc. then you can apart it cleaned it and how did you lubricate it? Did you change the mainspring didn't need to be changed was it a problem? Although even if it is a problem the watch is wound up it will run for a little while so you can still use it for diagnostics if it is a problem.

 

[Fralex]

28 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Why did you change the escape wheel and pallet fork? Then typically they don't cause a rate changes rates are determined by the balance wheel and hairspring. But they will cause running issues.

I thought they might be somehow damaged, so I replaced them to confirm that they are not the problem.

 

39 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

In addition to checking for end shake did you check to see that the wheels turn freely and effortlessly? In other words when the pallet fork is out if you start the wind the watch does a watch instantly starts spinning its train or is there a hesitation or a lack of it doesn't want to move right away?

I checked that when I was reassembling the movement, everything seemed fine. Gears were spinning with even the slightest touch on mainspring barrel.

 

46 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Then because you didn't say which are skill set is making the assumption that you're new to watch repair and the problem is we get a problem like this you'll start looking for obscure things like isochronism and what exactly do you think isochronism is it anyway?

I am relatively new to watchmaking and I tend not to tinker too much around hairspring. I work usually on mass-produced watches and if I have a problem with the hairspring or balance I replace the whole assembly. I will probably do that with this movement, and I will put the new mainspring when I find a spare one. Since the problem was not magnetism, endshake, sideshake, dirt or lack of lubrication, only two things that I thought are left were poise and isochronism (I am not 100% sure what they mean, but I know they can change the rate).

Maybe it is problem with the bad mainspring, but it looked fine when assembling the watch and the amplitude is not too bad.

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

What was the condition of the watch in before you service did? In other words was a running did you put on the timing machine how did it look etc. then you can apart it cleaned it and how did you lubricate it? Did you change the mainspring didn't need to be changed was it a problem? Although even if it is a problem the watch is wound up it will run for a little while so you can still use it for diagnostics if it is a problem.

The watch was in working condition. The amplitude was low (around 170-180) and oils had dried out. When checked on timegrapher the line was also wavy and weird, but I thought it was from low amplitude.

[JohnR725]

On 3/11/2023 at 12:51 PM, Fralex said:

Can somebody tell me what is wrong with this movement. I see that amplitude is a bit low, but it is nothing unexpected from used Vostok movement. It has been freshly serviced, but the line on the timegrapher seems weird.

I would be curious if you would try both free versions Of the program below with your watch and see if things look better? Because we've had this issue in the past where typically a phone app but conceivably software wasn't producing the results they should.

https://c.web.de/@337134913998293880/YuEh_TobSjaCfyBDix_1gg

http://www.watchoscope.com/

 

[Knebo]

Wow, this is an excellent document!! Super useful.

On 3/12/2023 at 11:31 AM, JohnR725 said:

I have a link where someone else's serviced one you'll notice it does not get stellar results.

https://17jewels.info/movements/w/wostok/wostok-2414a/

Then it will be nice to have a few more images of different positions for diagnostic purposes. I'm assuming you're timing it dial down then another one recorded dial up and then crown down the see if there's any differences

I'm also attaching a PDF with some helpful information.  Notice how 7 and 10 are similar because basically the same thing except 7 is only one side of the escapement and 10 is both sides.

So it basically looks like uneven power and escapement issues. 

 

 

Timing-Machine-Charts.PDF 5.32 MB · 13 downloads

 

[mikepilk]

On 3/12/2023 at 7:23 PM, Fralex said:

Maybe it is problem with the bad mainspring, but it looked fine when assembling the watch and the amplitude is not too bad.

The watch was in working condition. The amplitude was low (around 170-180) and oils had dried out. When checked on timegrapher the line was also wavy and weird, but I thought it was from low amplitude.

In my experience, it's rarely the mainspring. More often tight arbor in the barrel, or too much play at the arbor bridge.

I'm just putting together an Omega 620 and had similar problems - very variable (and low) amplitude. Turned out to be too much endshake on the balance. Once shimmed (shouldn't have to on an Omega  ) the amplitude is up, and it's steady DD/DU.

I know you checked the balance endshake and said it "seemed fine". How much play do you consider "fine"?

Russian movements usually have a shim under the balance cock. 

[Knebo]

1 hour ago, mikepilk said:

Russian movements usually have a shim under the balance cock. 

That is a point worth checking indeed. 

It looks like this and fits right between the main plate and the balance cock. (The easiest method to put it on is to first put on the bridge without it and only scew down the screw a little bit. Then push it in from the side. Then tighten the screw fully.) 

Also maybe double check if all the wheels are perfectly flat/even.

 

 

I recently serviced a Vostok 2414 as well and management to get amplitudes between 280 and 320 across positions. Ao good results are possible. But well, I had two movements and cherry picked each part between them... Quite a luxury.