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Hi, just looking for some help with Seiko 2206. I am getting great amplitude of 285 degrees DU 30 minutes after full wind. The issue I have is that when then mainspring gets fully wound I see an amplitude of 330+ degrees and the rate briefly goes through the roof. I suspect this is what's called rebanking. The high rate stops after less than 2 seconds and the amplitude drops back quickly to less than 300 degrees in about 15 seconds. Any idea how to fix this? I am thinking that the mainspring needs to slip better. Seiko bridle is very stiff in my experience and doesn't slip easily. All help appreciated.

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1 hour ago, steve1811uk said:

I am thinking that the mainspring needs to slip better. Seiko bridle is very stiff in my experience and doesn't slip easily. All help appreciated.

classically yes the symptoms your describing our a mainspring that's not slipping. then I know it's been discussed on the group before the Seiko bridal as you noted is different than the aftermarket. So the suspicion I have is that if you using a normal breaking grease that works on the normal automatic its way way too sticky for Seiko. What were you using for your breaking grease by the way?

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46 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

classically yes the symptoms your describing our a mainspring that's not slipping. then I know it's been discussed on the group before the Seiko bridal as you noted is different than the aftermarket. So the suspicion I have is that if you using a normal breaking grease that works on the normal automatic its way way too sticky for Seiko. What were you using for your breaking grease by the way?

I used 3 blobs of 8217 around the barrel rim. I don't think that is providing enough lubrication. I am thinking of trying to get hold of something with molybdenum in it as I think that is what is used by Seiko. Does anyone know the name of the correct Seiko grease? I have been led to believe that original mainsprings are smothered in the moly grease.

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4 hours ago, steve1811uk said:

Does anyone know the name of the correct Seiko grease?

Although I'm sure there are exceptions, Seiko would generally use S-4 grease in the barrels.   I've also used 8217 as you mentioned and have had great results.  Three blobs might not be enough.  If you are unsure, while you are applying it, try to spread it out into a thin layer around the circumference of the inner barrel wall.  Three dabs of grease may not be enough to make it all the way around.  I'm usually at 5 or 6 small dabs of grease in order to get a thin film of grease all the way around.  Sometimes I like to apply the grease in this manner in an effort to avoid having that grease come off the wall and into the bottom of the barrel while installing the spring.

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7 hours ago, steve1811uk said:

Does anyone know the name of the correct Seiko grease? I have been led to believe that original mainsprings are smothered in the moly grease.

I'm not sure why I thought this but I thought there grease used graphite. Then as far as smothering goes yes if you're taken apart original Seiko barrel the entire wall mainspring everything is literally smothered in the grease. So typically breaking grease would never be used on the spring because you would have running issues. So this is where if they had a much much stronger breaking spring then you could smother everything and the breaking spring would hold against the slippery grease as a guess

2 hours ago, thor447 said:

Three blobs might not be enough.

a lot of this depends upon the particular lubrication like if you use the Swiss 125 something I think it is super sticky grease and if you start using more of it the more you use the stick. It is and if you put it around the entire rim when you reach the end you can actually feel it stop and it breaks with extreme force.. But I think some of the breaking greases probably are more slippery perhaps if there's more but I don't actually know I do know if you use the wrong grease thinking breaking grease then it definitely will slip

then here's a lubrication guide word explains their lubrication's from Seiko

Seiko lubrication oiling guide.PNG

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1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

I'm not sure why I thought this but I thought there grease used graphite. Then as far as smothering goes yes if you're taken apart original Seiko barrel the entire wall mainspring everything is literally smothered in the grease. So typically breaking grease would never be used on the spring because you would have running issues. So this is where if they had a much much stronger breaking spring then you could smother everything and the breaking spring would hold against the slippery grease as a guess

a lot of this depends upon the particular lubrication like if you use the Swiss 125 something I think it is super sticky grease and if you start using more of it the more you use the stick. It is and if you put it around the entire rim when you reach the end you can actually feel it stop and it breaks with extreme force.. But I think some of the breaking greases probably are more slippery perhaps if there's more but I don't actually know I do know if you use the wrong grease thinking breaking grease then it definitely will slip

then here's a lubrication guide word explains their lubrication's from Seiko

Seiko lubrication oiling guide.PNG

Thanks guys. I have come to a conclusion that Seiko mainsprings need some lubrication that cannot be displaced to be able to slip.  I've just ordered some Seiko S3 grease and will see if that helps. I think it contains molybdenum disulfide which is a high pressure additive and should combat the pressure of the bridle pressing against the barrel wall. I will post as soon as the S3 arrives with results.

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10 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

I'm not sure why I thought this but I thought there grease used graphite. Then as far as smothering goes yes if you're taken apart original Seiko barrel the entire wall mainspring everything is literally smothered in the grease. So typically breaking grease would never be used on the spring because you would have running issues. So this is where if they had a much much stronger breaking spring then you could smother everything and the breaking spring would hold against the slippery grease as a guess

a lot of this depends upon the particular lubrication like if you use the Swiss 125 something I think it is super sticky grease and if you start using more of it the more you use the stick. It is and if you put it around the entire rim when you reach the end you can actually feel it stop and it breaks with extreme force.. But I think some of the breaking greases probably are more slippery perhaps if there's more but I don't actually know I do know if you use the wrong grease thinking breaking grease then it definitely will slip

then here's a lubrication guide word explains their lubrication's from Seiko

Seiko lubrication oiling guide.PNG

Excellent point.  

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I use 8213 around the barrel wall, and have never had problems with too much amplitude on Seiko - I almost always have the opposite problem.

I'm working on a 2206 at the moment, and have struggled to get the amplitude above 230° - though the mainspring isn't perfect and there is wear in the movement. The bottom of the 4th wheel isn't jewelled, which seems odd, as both ends of the 3rd are. By Seiko standards, it's quite a complicated movement, with more parts than I expected.

13 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

then here's a lubrication guide word explains their lubrication's from Seiko

This got my attention:

They recommend oiling the gear train in a totally different way - a 'grease-like oil' applied to the bottom surface of the jewel 😯

I did the 'traditional way' with HP1300 in the jewel well.

I suppose if you have too much amplitude, a thick 'grease-like oil' will dampen things a bit.

image.png.c77fbd12c431645c35730399f0ec121b.png

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58 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

a 'grease-like oil' applied to the bottom surface of the jewel

strangely enough I've seen this before with Seiko. Can't quite remember I think it was with quartz watches where you can't get's the other side for reasons I don't know so you put the oil on the pivot which always seems strange. Here I think as they explain their basically using a grease has is no way the grease will flow to where it's supposed to be so you put it on the pivot which does make for an interesting combination.

then a classic I googled S4 and somebody says it's equivalent HP 1300. Except HP 1300 would flow in from the backside so it can't actually be the same thing. Then somebody else thought it was an actual grease like oil and somebody else the same discussion there thought it was to be used on the mainspring. This is why lubrication is always interesting so much confusion

well I thought there is a second page the image and I was right. Usually when I save the files I put a page number there was a page 1 but I didn't see a page to. but all looking now I remembered where I found it interesting watch group maybe we should join this oh wait we already have.

https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/5407-seiko-oiling-instructions/

okay when you read the second page we find out that the HP oil is not the same. It does bring up the problem of what would be the same may be 9504. That's the blue grease with the boron which is basically a white high-pressure lubricants or except it's natural there is eight one of the 8000 series Swiss greases has molybdenum disulfide  in it.

interesting a little farther down somebody posts an amusing comments? Plus recommendations that may or may not be correct.

okay as typical with Seiko lots of confusion. Let me attach a couple of lubrication charts don't ask where I got them from I have no idea. I have a suspicion I may have physically scanned in a Seiko book or I had somebody else scan it for me I just can't quite remember.

okay three of them attached the 5106 looks like S4 is the grease of choice including on the third wheel pivots. Place where you normally wouldn't expect to find it and you will note on the barrel wall the recommendation is S3

then the 6106 S4 isn't used quite as much. Different lubrication on the mainspring barrel though.

then the 7005 looks kinda like the 5106 with its choice of lubrication's.

This is where we need a few dozen Seiko watches to try experiments with. It's also where it's fun to try experiments learn new things and try different lubrication methods just because we can.

 

 

 

 

 

Seiko-Oil-5106A.PDF Seiko-Oil-6106A.PDF Seiko-Oil-7005A.PDF

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1 hour ago, mikepilk said:

I use 8213 around the barrel wall, and have never had problems with too much amplitude on Seiko - I almost always have the opposite problem.

I'm working on a 2206 at the moment, and have struggled to get the amplitude above 230° - though the mainspring isn't perfect and there is wear in the movement. The bottom of the 4th wheel isn't jewelled, which seems odd, as both ends of the 3rd are. By Seiko standards, it's quite a complicated movement, with more parts than I expected.

This got my attention:

They recommend oiling the gear train in a totally different way - a 'grease-like oil' applied to the bottom surface of the jewel 😯

I did the 'traditional way' with HP1300 in the jewel well.

I suppose if you have too much amplitude, a thick 'grease-like oil' will dampen things a bit.

image.png.c77fbd12c431645c35730399f0ec121b.png

You might need to take out the wear on the barrel arbor ports using a staking set and smoothing broach. You can get big amplitude gains by solving that issue.

29 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

strangely enough I've seen this before with Seiko. Can't quite remember I think it was with quartz watches where you can't get's the other side for reasons I don't know so you put the oil on the pivot which always seems strange. Here I think as they explain their basically using a grease has is no way the grease will flow to where it's supposed to be so you put it on the pivot which does make for an interesting combination.

then a classic I googled S4 and somebody says it's equivalent HP 1300. Except HP 1300 would flow in from the backside so it can't actually be the same thing. Then somebody else thought it was an actual grease like oil and somebody else the same discussion there thought it was to be used on the mainspring. This is why lubrication is always interesting so much confusion

well I thought there is a second page the image and I was right. Usually when I save the files I put a page number there was a page 1 but I didn't see a page to. but all looking now I remembered where I found it interesting watch group maybe we should join this oh wait we already have.

https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/5407-seiko-oiling-instructions/

okay when you read the second page we find out that the HP oil is not the same. It does bring up the problem of what would be the same may be 9504. That's the blue grease with the boron which is basically a white high-pressure lubricants or except it's natural there is eight one of the 8000 series Swiss greases has molybdenum disulfide  in it.

interesting a little farther down somebody posts an amusing comments? Plus recommendations that may or may not be correct.

okay as typical with Seiko lots of confusion. Let me attach a couple of lubrication charts don't ask where I got them from I have no idea. I have a suspicion I may have physically scanned in a Seiko book or I had somebody else scan it for me I just can't quite remember.

okay three of them attached the 5106 looks like S4 is the grease of choice including on the third wheel pivots. Place where you normally wouldn't expect to find it and you will note on the barrel wall the recommendation is S3

then the 6106 S4 isn't used quite as much. Different lubrication on the mainspring barrel though.

then the 7005 looks kinda like the 5106 with its choice of lubrication's.

This is where we need a few dozen Seiko watches to try experiments with. It's also where it's fun to try experiments learn new things and try different lubrication methods just because we can.

 

 

 

 

 

Seiko-Oil-5106A.PDF 1.21 MB · 1 download Seiko-Oil-6106A.PDF 866.86 kB · 1 download Seiko-Oil-7005A.PDF 989.78 kB · 1 download

Great post and the oiling sheets so informative. Shows S3 on barrel wall for 7005 at least. I have both S3 and S4 on the way to me soon. There's a guy on eBay selling small 1 gram quantities of each at a reasonable cost.

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25 minutes ago, steve1811uk said:

You might need to take out the wear on the barrel arbor ports using a staking set and smoothing broach. You can get big amplitude gains by solving that issue.

That's what I did. There was some sideshake on the barrel arbor holes - but way too much endshake. The barrel was hitting the centre wheel - which also had too much endshake. I managed to close the barrel holes and bend the centre down a touch to cure the endshake . I also had to close the barrel bridge hole, and some of the auto mechanism holes. I don't think this movement has ever been serviced. 

I also managed to break the click spring for the first reduction wheel (553 220) - it's such a fine spring. I couldn't find an old spring which was so thin. So I used the closest I could find and sanded it down. If it's too stiff it won't auto-wind properly.

When first serviced I was only seeing about 200°, but after all the fixes it's above 240°, so if it's OK after 24h I'll leave it at that.

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1 hour ago, mikepilk said:

That's what I did. There was some sideshake on the barrel arbor holes - but way too much endshake. The barrel was hitting the centre wheel - which also had too much endshake. I managed to close the barrel holes and bend the centre down a touch to cure the endshake . I also had to close the barrel bridge hole, and some of the auto mechanism holes. I don't think this movement has ever been serviced. 

I also managed to break the click spring for the first reduction wheel (553 220) - it's such a fine spring. I couldn't find an old spring which was so thin. So I used the closest I could find and sanded it down. If it's too stiff it won't auto-wind properly.

When first serviced I was only seeing about 200°, but after all the fixes it's above 240°, so if it's OK after 24h I'll leave it at that.

Hi Mike, what lift angle are you using? I am using 51 degrees to get amplitude figures that agree with my slo mo videos showing 180 and 270 degrees of movement. The available data shows that lift angle should be 48 degrees, but that was giving me lower amplitude figures on the timegrapher than the actual reality.

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1 hour ago, steve1811uk said:

Hi Mike, what lift angle are you using? I am using 51 degrees to get amplitude figures that agree with my slo mo videos showing 180 and 270 degrees of movement. The available data shows that lift angle should be 48 degrees, but that was giving me lower amplitude figures on the timegrapher than the actual reality.

Hi Steve, I'm using 48°. Just about to test it on the autowinder to see if my homemade spring works OK

I'm doing it up to sell on ebay. These are nice movements, with quick change on day and date, but sell for very little. Hence I'm not going to spend on parts (like a new mainspring) unless I have to.  Seiko's have a reputation for low amplitude, so as long as it keeps reasonable time, it's good to go !

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1 hour ago, mikepilk said:

Hi Steve, I'm using 48°. Just about to test it on the autowinder to see if my homemade spring works OK

I'm doing it up to sell on ebay. These are nice movements, with quick change on day and date, but sell for very little. Hence I'm not going to spend on parts (like a new mainspring) unless I have to.  Seiko's have a reputation for low amplitude, so as long as it keeps reasonable time, it's good to go !

I'm also doing one up to sell on ebay. I like to use these lower cost watches as skills practice as I've only been doing this hobby for 3 years. The watch actually only cost me £10 with original bracelet from a local market stall. I know that I won't get back what I have put into it in terms of time but I have gained a lot in skills. That's why I want to solve the re-banking so I can apply that in future to more expensive watches as it will come up again. Up to now with some dynamic poising of the balance wheel I have managed to get the watch running with a rate delta of 3 across 6 positions (originally it was running +20 and -20 crown left/right when set to 0 SPD DU/DD). The watch does speed up a bit overnight off the wrist in this cold weather to around +15 SPD, I guess that's due to a number of factors (metal expansion and lubricant viscosity spring to mind). I've seen that behaviour on Seikos of that period before so usually just compensate them to lose a bit in the day.

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1 hour ago, mikepilk said:

I'm doing it up to sell on ebay. These are nice movements, with quick change on day and date, but sell for very little.

Have two of the manual wind 2202A movements in my hoard of Seiko lady movements and just ordered two auto 2205A movements from speedtimerkollektion. Should be good practice material. 

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54 minutes ago, steve1811uk said:

I'm also doing one up to sell on ebay. I like to use these lower cost watches as skills practice as I've only been doing this hobby for 3 years. The watch actually only cost me £10 with original bracelet from a local market stall. I know that I won't get back what I have put into it in terms of time but I have gained a lot in skills. That's why I want to solve the re-banking so I can apply that in future to more expensive watches as it will come up again. Up to now with some dynamic poising of the balance wheel I have managed to get the watch running with a rate delta of 3 across 6 positions (originally it was running +20 and -20 crown left/right when set to 0 SPD DU/DD). The watch does speed up a bit overnight off the wrist in this cold weather to around +15 SPD, I guess that's due to a number of factors (metal expansion and lubricant viscosity spring to mind). I've seen that behaviour on Seikos of that period before so usually just compensate them to lose a bit in the day.

I just do it for fun, not to make a profit. As long as it covers my costs I'm happy. I lose on a few but profit on others.

That's amazing performance you've achieved from such a small balance (you only need 5 positons 🤣 ). I only bother with dynamic balancing when I've got balance screws to play with and the balance is way out on timing. 

Ladies watches are cheaper to buy and practice on, but can be annoying to get good performance due to their small size - the frictional forces are relatively higher, so they are more sensitive to dirt and wear. I recently serviced a ladies Tudor cal 364, manual wind, 18x15mm. Without any tweaking I get dead flat timegrapher lines Dial Up  (296° amp) and Crown down. Some movements just seem to want to run nicely. I've only got 4 oldish Longines, but all just run so well, quality tells. 

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The Seiko tech guide for the 2202A, which is used for the gear train side of the 2206, says no need to clean and lube the mainspring.  Don't shoot the messenger.  The similar size and era 2702 movement shows Seiko S-3 for the barrel wall. 

I disassembled a 2205 barrel because others said it couldn't be done.  It is possible but you need a sharp razor blade and patience to get the halves separated.  It had a lot of black grease in it.  It looked a lot like S-3. 

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4 minutes ago, bklake said:

The Seiko tech guide for the 2202A, which is used for the gear train side of the 2206, says no need to clean and lube the mainspring.  Don't shoot the messenger.  The similar size and era 2702 movement shows Seiko S-3 for the barrel wall. 

I disassembled a 2205 barrel because others said it couldn't be done.  It is possible but you need a sharp razor blade and patience to get the halves separated.  It had a lot of black grease in it.  It looked a lot like S-3. 

Thank you, I have such a blade and it's getting opened as soon as my S-3 arrives. Will report back hopefully with some improvement to the performance.

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42 minutes ago, bklake said:

The Seiko tech guide for the 2202A, which is used for the gear train side of the 2206, says no need to clean and lube the mainspring.  Don't shoot the messenger.  The similar size and era 2702 movement shows Seiko S-3 for the barrel wall. 

I disassembled a 2205 barrel because others said it couldn't be done.  It is possible but you need a sharp razor blade and patience to get the halves separated.  It had a lot of black grease in it.  It looked a lot like S-3. 

This is true on many Seiko movements. Doesn't mean that the barrels/springs don't need a clean and lube.

For all these movements, 2202, 2205, 2206 the barrel and mainspring are sold as a complete unit. I always open them (like you with a razor blade)  and find they are full of thick black grease. After cleaning I wipe a thin layer of 8200 on to the spring, and 8213 on to the barrel wall.

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Several years ago, I got some Seiko S-3 grease.  In the box was a package insert with instructions for applying to the barrel.  It basically says to brush it on the barrel wall, floor and lid.  Actually shows a brush in the drawings.  In no way does it show anything similar to the "standard"  braking grease dots on the wall and oil on top of the spring. 

I'm not a watchmaker by trade and I know that anything lubrication related is equal to swearing in church or talking politics and women at the dinner table.  I try to service Seiko movements the Seiko way and Swiss products the Swiss way.  They both have different paths to lubricate stuff.  Details are often confused in translation.  Pictures and diagrams translate perfectly.  Every Seiko barrel I've opened is full of S-3 or S-4 looking grease.  Very similar to what the insert for the S-3 suggests.  I don't know why Seiko does it that way but the do.

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1 hour ago, bklake said:

Several years ago, I got some Seiko S-3 grease.  In the box was a package insert with instructions for applying to the barrel.  It basically says to brush it on the barrel wall, floor and lid.  Actually shows a brush in the drawings.  In no way does it show anything similar to the "standard"  braking grease dots on the wall and oil on top of the spring. 

That actually fits the description of any Seiko mainspring barrel I've ever seen it's filled with  grease. But one of the problems when looking at lubrication from various manufacturers and even countries is is everything else the same? In other words the outer bridal spring on a Seiko is typically much thicker than a Swiss watch. Because I'm guessing it applies way more pressure to hold it in place and it does not rely so much on the breaking grease. In other words conceivably very little breaking of the grease is required because the bridal itself.

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