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Need help fault finding why the train of wheels is binding


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Image was taken before service

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I’m working on a Raketa calibre 2609.HA that I have fully and carefully serviced. It belongs in a Raketa Big Zero. I need help diagnosing why the train of wheels binds. Or at least, that’s what I suspect is happening.

As can be seen in the above pictures, the movement was doing poorly before the service, but now it isn't running at all.

When I wind the mainspring a bit, about one turn of the ratchet wheel, it behaves normally. Gently pushing the pallet fork horns back and forth with the tip of an oiler, the pallet snaps between the banking pins (fixed on the main plate) as it should. However, when I increase the power on the main spring a bit more, about half a turn extra on the ratchet wheel, the pallet no longer snaps between the banking pins when gently pushed, and it’s like no power is transferred to the escape wheel.

I’ve been looking around through my stereo microscope from every angle possible to see if I can find something suspicious, but as far as I can see everything looks normal. No wheels seem to be rubbing.

When unwinding the mainspring, the problem persists (most of the time) until the mainspring has been completely unwound. Then, when winding the mainspring a bit again, the pattern repeats itself.

I really don’t know how to approach the fault finding as everything (barrel, train of wheels, and pallet fork) needs to be in place to test it.

This really has me puzzled, so hoping someone else has had this or a similar problem and found a solution to it.

Edited by VWatchie
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7 hours ago, VWatchie said:

 the pallet no longer snaps between the banking pins when gently pushed, and it’s like no power is transferred to the escape wheel.

Do I correctly understand this,   one and half turn, fork doesn't snap.

but if at this point , you remove the fork, the train runs. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Do I correctly understand this,   one and half turn, fork doesn't snap.

but if at this point , you remove the fork, the train runs. 

 

 

Well, that is something I need to test, but no, I would definitely assume the train not to run. Moving the escape wheel a bit back and forth with the tip of on oiler (fork in + power on the mainspring) it feels "dead".

10 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

Sounds like a worn pivot or jewel hole.

The only problem a saw was that the side shake of the third wheel pivots was excessive but not really alarming (the pivots looked fine). I decided not to replace the jewels as I wasn't looking for perfection. But, could that really lock up the train? In that case, why did the movement run before service? Maybe the old gunk of dirt and oil in the jewel holes stabilised the pivots?  Perhaps it would be worth it trying to replace the jewels, or what do you think?

Edited by VWatchie
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10 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

Sounds like a worn pivot or jewel hole. But this is from my experience with clock movements

yes this is a classic on non-jeweled holes. Without the pallet fork the train will spin freely but as soon as there is pressure and if the hole was oval things will bind up.

not being familiar with the movement the link below indicates either 17 or 19 jewels.

I was too slow with my answer now I have to start over because you actually answered one of my questions. Had okay I'll pretend I didn't read your answer with just enough power to cause up to stop because of make it a lot easier to check that if it's fully wound up tight possibly. As you said you've already checked escape wheel it's like it's free-floating with no power what about the wheel next to it than the wheel next to it the wheel next to it and so forth.

Also the mainspring barrel as it's not jeweled or the plates usually isn't jeweled.

Oh another thing to check look at the pinions carefully. Can you see how they've worn? If the watch has been running for a long time span and slowly developed something that I can out around hole or pivot you may actually see the wear marks on pinion especially if the watch ever had in a rust exposure.

okay now we have up classic problem and the classic question where did the watch come from and what was it doing before you service service the watch? In other words you know the history of the thing. I remember a prior discussion was somebody with a new old stock watch the assumption was new old stock would've been a running watch but I think we finally decided new old stock meant that the watch was not very desirable and just didn't run very well which is why they were new old stock.

So our classic assumption is that the watches were always running and possibly running perfectly except a watch like this the quality isn't there so maybe it never did run perfectly but wasn't running before? Oh and back to my comment about rust I suppose of the lubrication's went bad or they just had bad lubrication you could grind the pivot down. It depends upon the time piece  as to how much angle can occur before you get a binding issue.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&&2uswk&Raketa_2609_HA

 

 

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13 hours ago, VWatchie said:

IMG_9612.thumb.JPG.f07276db6f08c167a53c1b4c7e7e80f7.JPG
Image was taken before service

IMG_9614.thumb.JPG.499d82b43207c34472650e3ea038f315.JPG
Image was taken before service

I’m working on a Raketa calibre 2609.HA that I have fully and carefully serviced. It belongs in a Raketa Big Zero. I need help diagnosing why the train of wheels binds. Or at least, that’s what I suspect is happening.

As can be seen in the above pictures, the movement was doing poorly before the service, but now it isn't running at all.

When I wind the mainspring a bit, about one turn of the ratchet wheel, it behaves normally. Gently pushing the pallet fork horns back and forth with the tip of an oiler, the pallet snaps between the banking pins (fixed on the main plate) as it should. However, when I increase the power on the main spring a bit more, about half a turn extra on the ratchet wheel, the pallet no longer snaps between the banking pins when gently pushed, and it’s like no power is transferred to the escape wheel.

I’ve been looking around through my stereo microscope from every angle possible to see if I can find something suspicious, but as far as I can see everything looks normal. No wheels seem to be rubbing.

When unwinding the mainspring, the problem persists (most of the time) until the mainspring has been completely unwound. Then, when winding the mainspring a bit again, the pattern repeats itself.

I really don’t know how to approach the fault finding as everything (barrel, train of wheels, and pallet fork) needs to be in place to test it.

This really has me puzzled, so hoping someone else has had this or a similar problem and found a solution to it.

By coincidence watchie I'm working on the same calibre. Out of curiosity how is the side and endshake beween the barrel and arbor ? When i have the barrel fitted the combined excess sideshake of the mainplate, bridge, barrel and lid allow the barrel to tilt enough to rub on the mainplate. How does yours look ?

2 hours ago, VWatchie said:

Well, that is something I need to test, but no, I would definitely assume the train not to run. Moving the escape wheel a bit back and forth with the tip of on oiler (fork in + power on the mainspring) it feels "dead".

Increased power delivery on a worn escape wheel pivot / jewel hole causing the escape wheel to push into a deeper jewel lock ?  Would it be possible to hold the escape wheel back reducing the lock ( using a fine paintbrush )

Edited by Neverenoughwatches
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 In case you removed the mainspring to clean, it is coneivable that samehow it now rubs on the barrel  lid given enough wind.  like it cones .

As said,  side shake specially at low torque gears or a pinion can do this , I am thinking in such a case nudging  gears ( back and forth) might set let train free to run. 

Who knows , looks like you are to find a needle in hay stack. 

Good luck

 

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11 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

not being familiar with the movement the link below indicates either 17 or 19 jewels.

The link states 19 jewels. The escape wheel pivots have the same shape as the balance staff pivots and are resting on cap jewels. I did notice one of those cap jewels having a minuscule cavity, but I didn't feel a replacement was necessary. As stated, I'm not looking for perfection.

12 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Without the pallet fork the train will spin freely but as soon as there is pressure and if the hole was oval things will bind up.

I need to look into that too. I did mention side-shake on the third wheel and maybe the jewel hole it's oval too. If you wonder why I don't check it immediately, I don't have a workshop, and it takes me 15 minutes to transform the bedroom into a workshop. That is if the bedroom is available, and with the wife in bed, it is not 🤨

12 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

As you said you've already checked escape wheel it's like it's free-floating with no power what about the wheel next to it than the wheel next to it the wheel next to it and so forth.

12 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

In other words you know the history of the thing.

More things to look into, and I have no idea about the movement's history. The theory (as stated by the Russian watch experts on WUS) is that the dial, case, hands, crown, and stem, are all NOS (parts were given to watchmakers in the factory instead of money when the Soviet Union collapsed so that they could put watches together and sell them in the street for a living) but the movement has probably been running for tens of thousands of hours in a different Raketa watch. It was extremely dirty and dried up, but it was, unlike now, ticking as seen in the pictures.

12 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

So our classic assumption is that the watches were always running and possibly running perfectly except a watch like this the quality isn't there so maybe it never did run perfectly but wasn't running before?

The quality of these movements is pretty far from anything Swiss, but some copies can run really well. I'd be surprised if it ever ran perfectly, but considering it has been so well-used, it couldn't have been doing too badly.

Anyway, lots of things to look into. Hopefully, I'll have another chance to look at it within a  few weeks...

6 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

n case you removed the mainspring to clean, it is coneivable that samehow it now rubs on the barrel  lid given enough wind.  like it cones .

I did service the mainspring and wind it in by hand as it has a T-shaped bridle. The spring looked good, also inside the barrel when I replaced the barrel lid, but who knows? Is there any way to check if it forms into a cone when wound?

10 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

When i have the barrel fitted the combined excess sideshake of the mainplate, bridge, barrel and lid allow the barrel to tilt enough to rub on the mainplate. How does yours look ?

As far as I can tell, it doesn't rub on anything, but thanks for the tip.

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31 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

but considering it has been so well-used, it couldn't have been doing too badly.

that is basically what I was looking for in other words it's not new old stock out of a warehouse someplace and it'd never ran at all but it's something that ran. Then because of the background of the watch where it came from etc. we accepted it's not going to run perfect but it still should run.

Typically stuff especially if what it was made originally if they grasp low quality than typically that kinda stuff will have lots of not sure how to word this lots of lack of tolerance and it should still run. So in other words it's not like a Rolex where if it was off by a fraction of a micrometer it would stop I'm slightly exaggerating here but your watch should have lots of things that would be considered very bad and could probably still run so whatever it is has to be very very bad as a guess. Or just very very strange as opposed to using the word bad.

I was partially rereading the original posting it on to make sure I got the number right because I found a link to somebody who serviced on maybe we'll see something that I don't know may deal see something. But what I'm reading the original posting and your timing it I'm guessing it runs longer than it does now from your wording?

 

https://watchmender.wordpress.com/2019/01/18/sekonda-19-jewels-raketa-2609-ha/

 

 

 

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First place I check is the barrel lid to see if it has remained firmly in place and sits flush level in the barrel, next if barrel rubs on the plates due to excessove side shake or something.

Working on Russian watch, you ought to count shims.

Have you tried to wiggle the barrel when stuck? 

Good luck pal.

 

Edited by Nucejoe
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I think it has already been mentioned here, but just to add my experience... I had a similar situation, and after a close inspection I noticed that the barrel bridge/arbor hole had a lot of play. When the spring was not wound tightly the barrel rotated freely, however, once it had wind in it the additional torque caused it to bank over and bind against the hole in the bridge and bind up, this seems to be similar to what you are seeing. The quickest way to confirm this is to let the wind out of the mainspring and check the play in the barrel arbor/barrel bridge. You may need to fix this using a staking set if there is too much play. Chronoglide has a great youtube on this, just search for hammertime, or follow the link below:

Chronoglide video


 

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  • 4 weeks later...

I realize that the tension must have been almost excruciating and have given you many sleepless nights waiting to find out the cause of the pallets stopping when the mainspring has been sufficiently powered. I apologize for the long wait, but now I have the pleasure to announce that the wait is over, and the cause has been determined! 😉

As usual, you can never take anything for granted when working with watch movements, but the work must be adapted to the design of the movement (in this instance a Raketa calibre 2609.HA), which I completely missed. During ongoing service, when I inspected the pallets, it looked like there was way too little shellac on the entry stone, so I "of course" put on some extra shellac to ensure the stone wouldn't risk being jolted out of position. It turned out to be a crucial mistake and the reason why no power seemed to reach the escape wheel.

It is the case that the entry stone lives its life directly above the centre wheel rim and its teeth, and the distance between these is at most about 0.2-0.3 mm. Because I put extra shellac on the entry stone, the shellac on the entry stone and the centre wheel rim simply collided when the mainspring barrel came to press hard enough on the centre wheel pinion.

For me, it was hard to find this error because I still (after a good six years) have not developed a natural understanding of fine mechanics, but I take comfort in the fact that I am probably not completely alone in this. I’ve realized that watch repairing takes many years of practice and experience. The fact that we work in a microscopic world also increases the challenge exponentially. It's simply very difficult to see what's actually going on.

My method of finding the error was to use the method of exclusion. That is, carefully examine and test the wheel train one wheel at a time starting with the mainspring barrel and ending with the escape wheel. Since the fault only showed up with some power on the mainspring after about two revolutions of the ratchet wheel, I simply held each wheel to see if it would stop or behave sluggishly when I let go. Unexpectedly, everything worked perfectly, so only the pallets remained.

After much back and forth I managed to find an angle in a small gap under the pallet fork bridge where I could see that the shellac on the entry stone and the centre wheel rim collided. Persistence wins! Without my beloved stereo microscope, this would have been nearly impossible to find.

To fix the error I simply scraped off the applied shellac and reduced the end-shake on the centre wheel by a few hundredths of a millimetre to get some extra margin.

Now the movement is ticking again, but I will have to redo the service because I was quite careless with the cleanliness during the fault finding. Anyway, another experience under my belt in my quest for becoming a decent repairer.

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