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Nature of mass gravitation


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Hello forum/ RichardHarris123 

What causes earth or other massive bodies to produce gravitation/ gravitational field? 

What is the essence of gravitational force? 

All comments are welcomed.

 

Edited by Nucejoe
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As far as I know, the question is still unanswered.  Are there particles called gravitons?  We don't even know what causes mass, is it matter that reacts with the Higg's boson?  

18 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Hello forum/ RichardHarris123 

What causes earth or other massive bodies to produce gravitation/ gravitational field? 

What is the essence of gravitational force? 

All comments are welcomed.

 

What about magnetism then?  We probably have discovered all of the properties but the actual cause? 

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I think  material entities can exist only in a relevent field,  that is for an entity to come to existance a field is required for it to exist in, such field may momentarily  pop into existance just for the force to exist in, or it can also be a pre existing permanat  field.  Some loosely call permanat field ,  eternal field.

So my defintion of force is, the tendency of a force field,"  a relevent field" to resist movement or transfer of enrgy in the field manifests as force. 

 

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50 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

As far as I know, the question is still unanswered.  Are there particles called gravitons?  We don't even know what causes mass, is it matter that reacts with the Higg's boson?  

What about magnetism then?  We probably have discovered all of the properties but the actual cause? 

Tonights story will  put me into sleep, hopefully the story helps understand " the how and the why" 

Photons are force carriers and can  exist only if in high speed motion,( to exist it needs  a field or a host to accomodate it  )  once their state of motion undergoes a change or come dead  stop, it would need another host ( a system or a field) so  ( delivers)  some or all its cargo  ( some of its host disqualify it as a guest) it would  anhilate if it stops dead , if it got energy left and moves, its  a new photon carrying less force poping  into existance instead . The  delivered cargo is  "THE MAGNETIC FORCE" 

 It constantly forces its cargo into any system it can, metal molecules are such sytems, delivered cargo excites orbital electrons to higher orbits and increases the  frequency of thier spin ( voltage) , electrons de excitation takes place in the magnetic  field of the metals atom, so this de excitation energy goes into making of a new photon, which enters the neighboring system doing the same, as the polarity of all metal molecules in a magnet are arrayed in same direction, no atom can host the photon for good( no vacancy just a short stop) , thats  the photon is kicked out of the other end of the magnet but photon  wont gives up ( if it gives up it dies) so it enter the other pole of the magnet, goes througn the same interactions and repeats the same journey,  the magnet is the closest field to the photons ,  photons stay around the magnet to exist. 

Your question is where is the source of energy for all this motion.  

Little energy leaves the system, most remains in. 

So magnets are good for many years, but are not eternal.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, grsnovi said:

Isn't this a topic for cosmologytalk.com? 🙂

Physics is the study of laws of material existance. Cosmology is the study of cosmos by the laws of physics. 

Rgds

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2 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Physics is the study of laws of material existence. Cosmology is the study of cosmos by the laws of physics.

I don't know how you can separate them.

There are some many yet-to-be-know aspects to physics. What is dark energy? Why is there so little mass accounted for? There are HUGE galaxies being discovered so far back in time by JWST that shouldn't be that large at that time in the cosmos.

I would love to have a better understanding of the current model.

- G

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3 minutes ago, Klassiker said:

Good question, wrong section.

klassiker,    Which one is the right section.

 

This thread was started upon request by  RichardHarris.

Gary , Cosmology was not my scholastic decipline. Did you like my story, any question for indepth detail?  or mechanisms? 

Richard,    like any other material entity mass is the manifestation of resistance  ( in higg's field ) against motion of energy.   Mass is essentially  THE MOTION. 

Where there is no motion, there is no time no space. 

 

 

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11 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Hello forum/ RichardHarris123 

What causes earth or other massive bodies to produce gravitation/ gravitational field? 

What is the essence of gravitational force? 

All comments are welcomed.

 

 Matter causes spacetime to curve, which gives the effect of gravity.

Planets are not orbiting, but travelling in a straight line in curved spacetime. 

From a falling apples' frame of reference, it is not accelerating but travelling at constant speed in curved spacetime.

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17 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

 Matter causes spacetime to curve, which gives the effect of gravity.

 What property of matter curves spacetime? and by what  mechanism? 

Einstein simply showed an observerd effect.  Didn't understand whats at work creating the effect.

Newton declaired  laws of gravitation universal. We now know he was wrong. 

1- Quantum mechanics shows  laws of gravitation not to be universal.

2- Does gravitation exist , to declair its laws universal.  your saying gravition does not exist  so newton has declaired  universal laws for something that doesn't exist. 

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41 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

 What property of matter curves spacetime? and by what  mechanism? 

I don't know, I'm not a physicist (as the following may prove).

I understand that the shape of spacetime is determined by mass (and energy) - how this works is beyond my knowledge (and possibly anyone's?)  🥴

42 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Einstein simply showed an observerd effect.  Didn't understand whats at work creating the effect.

Newton declaired  laws of gravitation universal. We now know he was wrong. 

Science is our current best model (approximation) of the world. Many models are technically wrong, but we use them as they are simple and work - eg lens equations, refraction etc we use simple equations rather than complex quantum methods.

Newton was not wrong. His observations and model is correct (for general use). The equations set man on the moon and are still universally used. They may be technically wrong, but work well.

47 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

1- Quantum mechanics shows  laws of gravitation not to be universal. 

Does it? 

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Though we call photons force carriers, they actually carry thier energy  in the form of momentum, and exchange momentum with systems that are tuned to recieve  momentum from them. , we see the effect of such exchange and say the effect was caused by a force. 

General relativity doesn't recognise gravitational force, and considers it a curvature of spacetime.

In quantum mechanic however force regarded as a fundamental one ( in subnucleonic systems ) , so did the apple fall by gravitation force or the curvature of spacetime?  And does all suxh curvature run through the center of earth? 

12 minutes ago, Klassiker said:

Ask a moderator, but I would suggest the Relax Zone "talk about anything here".

I see, mistook safe zone for Relax zone.  

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I have Carlo Rovelli's "Reality Is Not What It Seems: The Journey to Quantum Gravity" in which he explains everything at the lowest level consists only of fields. I need to re-read it.

It seems that it's time causing gravity - and falling squirrels !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5PfjsPdBzg

 

(does anyone know how I paste a youtube link to show the video pic?)

Edited by mikepilk
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My personal theory in progress (for what it's worth):

Energy and mass are a spectrum (remember the ol' E=MC^2 song and dance); different intensities of the same thing. I seem to recall Einstein, or possibly another German physicist had one of those classic German-isms for it like energymass or massenergy; I'm going to anglo-internetify it and call it massergy. If you concentrate energy (lite massergy) to a point, spacetime will warp as if it were mass (heavy massergy) for instance. Carried to the extreme, your typical black hole is made of a whole lotta mass crammed into a tiny space. You could do the same with energy. Since they're the same things, just different points along the spectrum, it IS the same thing. If you go all the way to the low-energy end of some infinitesimally small amount of energy in a perfect vacuum, and slowly ramp up to black hole, you find the spacetime starts flat (or whatever topology), and slow ramps up to that classic 2D-cum-3D funnel visualization of a black hole. That makes me think that massergy is a feature of spacetime itself rather than a discrete phenomena taking place in/on it. Massergy is space time all wadded up/compressed/negatively-stretched.

From there, gravity, unlike the strong forces, is ALSO a feature of spacetime (as alluded to above re: curvature) rather than a phenomenon that occurs in/on it. Going back to relativity, we recall that as spacetime is warped, the rate of Causality (the C in E=MC^2, which does NOT actually stand for "the speed of light", which is merely a more easily graspable concept that happens to be the same in the same way a donut is a pastry, but all pastries aren't donuts) changes. That Causality gradient across the spacetime stretch/wadding/etc. of massergy is, I believe, the root cause for gravitation.

A good analogy for this is the wheels of a car; if you slow down the wheels on one side (the mass/stretchward side of the gradient) the car turns in that direction; it's [i]pulled[/i] in that direction. Imagine the wheels then are omnidirectional, frictionless, still moving through spacetime, and painted plaid for a little whimsy, the car is going to move in whichever direction it's wheels are being slowed.

Within this framework, it's possible there's a motionless reference frame relative to spacetime itself where gravity wouldn't work. This is the exception that would prove the rule. We, our solar system, galaxy, thread of the galactic web, etc. are all moving through spacetime, but [i]somewhere[/i] it is conceivable that there's a something that is stationary relative to the fabric of spacetime. At that point, gravity would not "exist" because the plaid, spherically wheeled car isn't moving, and is totally stationary; parked. 

Where this all potentially falls apart is in the math (which is beyond my ken). Is it possible for the causality gradient across the curvature of spacetime to "slow the wheels of the car" to the degree required to equal the observed "weak force" of gravity? I don't know. It's a good enough theory for a sci-fi flick, but that may be the end of it. I've never put this in writing, or said it out loud to anyone. Not many people out there to have these sorts of conversations with... Maybe someone here has the math chops to put me straight (looking at you @Nucejoe).

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13 minutes ago, spectre6000 said:

My personal theory in progress (for what it's worth):

Energy and mass are a spectrum (remember the ol' E=MC^2 song and dance); different intensities of the same thing. I seem to recall Einstein, or possibly another German physicist had one of those classic German-isms for it like energymass or massenergy; I'm going to anglo-internetify it and call it massergy. If you concentrate energy (lite massergy) to a point, spacetime will warp as if it were mass (heavy massergy) for instance. Carried to the extreme, your typical black hole is made of a whole lotta mass crammed into a tiny space. You could do the same with energy. Since they're the same things, just different points along the spectrum, it IS the same thing. If you go all the way to the low-energy end of some infinitesimally small amount of energy in a perfect vacuum, and slowly ramp up to black hole, you find the spacetime starts flat (or whatever topology), and slow ramps up to that classic 2D-cum-3D funnel visualization of a black hole. That makes me think that massergy is a feature of spacetime itself rather than a discrete phenomena taking place in/on it. Massergy is space time all wadded up/compressed/negatively-stretched.

From there, gravity, unlike the strong forces, is ALSO a feature of spacetime (as alluded to above re: curvature) rather than a phenomenon that occurs in/on it. Going back to relativity, we recall that as spacetime is warped, the rate of Causality (the C in E=MC^2, which does NOT actually stand for "the speed of light", which is merely a more easily graspable concept that happens to be the same in the same way a donut is a pastry, but all pastries aren't donuts) changes. That Causality gradient across the spacetime stretch/wadding/etc. of massergy is, I believe, the root cause for gravitation.

A good analogy for this is the wheels of a car; if you slow down the wheels on one side (the mass/stretchward side of the gradient) the car turns in that direction; it's [i]pulled[/i] in that direction. Imagine the wheels then are omnidirectional, frictionless, still moving through spacetime, and painted plaid for a little whimsy, the car is going to move in whichever direction it's wheels are being slowed.

Within this framework, it's possible there's a motionless reference frame relative to spacetime itself where gravity wouldn't work. This is the exception that would prove the rule. We, our solar system, galaxy, thread of the galactic web, etc. are all moving through spacetime, but [i]somewhere[/i] it is conceivable that there's a something that is stationary relative to the fabric of spacetime. At that point, gravity would not "exist" because the plaid, spherically wheeled car isn't moving, and is totally stationary; parked. 

Where this all potentially falls apart is in the math (which is beyond my ken). Is it possible for the causality gradient across the curvature of spacetime to "slow the wheels of the car" to the degree required to equal the observed "weak force" of gravity? I don't know. It's a good enough theory for a sci-fi flick, but that may be the end of it. I've never put this in writing, or said it out loud to anyone. Not many people out there to have these sorts of conversations with... Maybe someone here has the math chops to put me straight (looking at you @Nucejoe).

I can't find anywhere that stats that C isn't the speed of light. 

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One of the nuggets from my Special Relativity course was that C stands for Causality. I think Einstein may not have even known initially that light moved at the speed of causality, and thus it wasn't part of the equation (literally or idiomatically). That's a bit deep in the ol' memory hole though. Google around, and I'm sure it's out there. Or maybe the prof was spinning a mnemonic that I took literally? Not sure.

Regardless, it's used here and here contextually comporting with the understanding referenced in my previous post, though not explicitly stated as the literal "C", which 5 minutes of my own googling also didn't turn up any references to.

At any rate, the takeaway was that causality is the rate at which information travels. "Information" in this context is its own thoroughly packed term. Lots of things qualify as information, and are able to move at the speed of Causality (provided they're massless), such as change (yet another packed term). Light, being massless, moves at this same rate and everyone knows what speed and light are, so it's much easier to work with, and has thoroughly become a stand-in for causality. 

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6 hours ago, mikepilk said:

everything at the lowest level consists only of fields. 

 In an old school of thought, its still beleived that if you chased a beam of light (  your speed being the same as that of  light) , you would see the light you are chasing  as a frozen field . 

 

 

 

 

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19 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

 In an old school of thought, its still beleived that if you chased a beam of light (  your speed being the same as that of  light) , you would see the light you are chasing  as a frozen field . 

 

 

 

 

I read that's incorrect but not sure why. 

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7 minutes ago, spectre6000 said:

Because you wouldn't see it at all, since you'd be traveling at the same speed, and the light therefore would not be able to enter your eyes?

I agree with your logic and I would think the same but I read somewhere it wouldn't be the case. 

This is why I like Newtonian physics, it makes sense to me.  Some quantum mechanics has been proven but still weird to me, entangled particles etc. 

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5 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

This is why I like Newtonian physics, it makes sense to me.  Some quantum mechanics has been proven but still weird to me, entangled particles etc.

But Newtonian physics doesn't explain "everything" whereas Quantum physics might explain so much more. Imagine if there actually is a multiverse and there are entanglements between our universe and others. THAT could explain somethings. Other universes with other physics within the same boundaries as ours. How can there be these huge galaxies so far back in time (as have just been discovered by JWST) that shouldn't exist at that point in time?

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