Balance truing with a staking set??

[Endeavor]

I removed a broken balance staff from a balance using the "push-out" method with a jeweling tool. The hole in the jeweling stake was slightly bigger than the roller-table of the staff and I may have deformed the balance-wheel spoke slightly (??)

This could cause a balance-wheel to be out of true when the new balance staff is mounted. CousinsUK has truing calipers, which aren't directly cheap, so I was wondering whether one can do the truing with a staking set ?

Perhaps a bit hard to see, but here two different sizes stakes (to suite the balance staff diameters) with the (broken) balance-staff nice snug in between.

The staff-pivots are safeguarded and won't see any forces. One could mount a little pin on the anvil-plate to check whether the wheel is true ...... how adjustments are done hasn't been dreamed up yet, but I first like to bounce off the overall concept .....

Would this mimic the same function as a "lyre" truing caliper or are am I waaaay off ? 

Any thoughts ....... ?

 

 

Edited February 26, 2023 by Endeavor

[mikepilk]

You can buy the old style truing calipers quite cheaply on ebay - they will do the job

[Endeavor]

Okay, will check

 

[JohnR725]

11 hours ago, Endeavor said:

I removed a broken balance staff from a balance using the "push-out" method with a jeweling tool. The hole in the jeweling stake was slightly bigger than the roller-table of the staff and I may have deformed the balance-wheel spoke slightly

if you drive the staff out you ideally should have the special tool to hold the arms down because you end up with issues like this. On the modern gold colored superhard balance wheels with staffs designed to break you can push them out but you do that with the vintage well you can end up with bent arms and they're quite a pain to put back.

Then you need to get the right truing calipers otherwise you're going to be putting a new staff in. for instance mikepilk has a picture of the right kind you what I have the truing caliper resting on the clones of the pivots not the ends of the pivots the cone part and then you can put a lot of force on it if you're careful.

I have a link below with all kinds of interesting information scroll down to the section titled Joseph School of Watch Making they go to the very bottom you can download the entire book. Or just look at section 2 this will help you with true anger balance wheel.

https://www.mybulova.com/vintage-bulova-catalogs

 

[oldhippy]

Looks like you have messed up the hole where the balance goes. Not only are you going to have problems truing the balance, but you are going to have problems fitting a new balance staff.  Proper tools are made for a reason, they are costly to buy but they will save you money and time in the end. I would see if you can get hold of a balance complete. 

[Endeavor]

Thank you for your extreme helpful and constructive contribution for a problem inflicted on me by a dishonest seller. I'm trying to save what is there to save, to the best of my abilities, within my means and with the tools I have.

Edited February 27, 2023 by Endeavor

[rossjackson01]

20 minutes ago, Endeavor said:

Thank you for your extreme helpful and constructive contribution for a problem inflicted on me by a dishonest seller. I'm trying to save what is there to save, to the best of my abilities, within my means and with the tools I have.

Join the club. Dishonest seller. Bane of my life. I can only afford low-priced purchases (retired and on a £10 a week limit). I'm now at the stage where I am no longer thinking of watches or movements. Saving for tools that will assist. 

[mikepilk]

30 minutes ago, rossjackson01 said:

Join the club. Dishonest seller. Bane of my life. I can only afford low-priced purchases (retired and on a £10 a week limit). I'm now at the stage where I am no longer thinking of watches or movements. Saving for tools that will assist. 

What will help people starting on watch repair, to save ££$$, is being able to identify when good quality (=more expense) tools are required, and when they are not - .e.g. it's worth buying quality tweezers, screwdrivers, levers etc. New tools are not always required - there's plenty of good quality older stuff on ebay.

I see pics from 'beginners' with movements resting on Bergeon gel cushions. Why waste money on the Begeon name when it's not necessary? The two following Begeon parts cost nearly £130 (from a popular UK supplier). For the hairspring holder, I found a large, old scrap wristwatch case with acrylic glass and drilled a hole! The 'cheap' dial holder costs about £6.50, and it holds dials perfectly well. Saving £123. But some will want the Bergeon name 

 

Edited February 27, 2023 by mikepilk

[Endeavor]

"Necessity is the mother of invention"

If you have the resources it is easy to purchase whatever you need, whenever you need it. Coming to the same (or satisfactory) end result in a different, less expensive or at an amateur-level way requires thinking, creativity and effort.

People with lots of experience do have the ability to constructively assist or constructively criticize an alternative path. Luckily most do.

 

[JohnFrum]

4 hours ago, mikepilk said:

What will help people starting on watch repair, to save ££$$, is being able to identify when good quality (=more expense) tools are required, and when they are not - .e.g. it's worth buying quality tweezers, screwdrivers, levers etc. New tools are not always required - there's plenty of good quality older stuff on ebay.

I see pics from 'beginners' with movements resting on Bergeon gel cushions. Why waste money on the Begeon name when it's not necessary? The two following Begeon parts cost nearly £130 (from a popular UK supplier). For the hairspring holder, I found a large, old scrap wristwatch case with acrylic glass and drilled a hole! The 'cheap' dial holder costs about £6.50, and it holds dials perfectly well. Saving £123. But some will want the Bergeon name 

 

Cousins has a Chinese copy of the dial holder for 5.50 GBP. The Chinese have copied the hairspring holder too - in Aluminium and glass - 11 USD on Ali Express. 
 

Edited February 27, 2023 by JohnFrum

[JohnR725]

17 minutes ago, JohnFrum said:

The Chinese have copied the hairspring holder too - in Aluminium and glass - 11 USD on Ali Express. 

somewhere in the group I thought there was a discussion about did they clone it or? in other words Bergeon typically perches things from other suppliers and put their name on it. It would make sense of that outsourced to China because it's cheaper. The only problem outsourcing to China is they are creative so why waste a perfectly good factory making some expensive tool for some company in Switzerland when when it's not being used you could make a tool for people that have less money. They can put in a similar yellow colored box and you could sell on eBay and you make some money rather than let that factory and all the workers go to waste

I've heard stories like Nike for instance in the morning they make the official shoe and one factory and then in the afternoon that walk across the street the other factory sometimes the stuff may be as a quite of the same quality different glues to save money etc. That's the problem with outsourcing to China they're going to clone it

another thing important for watch tools is acquire them over time. Keep an eye open on eBay or wherever you purchase your tools from and just take a lot of time. I know I just didn't instantaneously have all the tools I have they required over a long period of time. Then sometimes even over time they got upgraded to something a little better.

 

[Endeavor]

12 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

another thing important for watch tools is acquire them over time. Keep an eye open on eBay or wherever you purchase your tools from and just take a lot of time. I know I just didn't instantaneously have all the tools I have they required over a long period of time. Then sometimes even over time they got upgraded to something a little better.

Very true, but often one sees tools, plenty of them, of which I don't even know I may require them in the future. It was never my intention to go as "deep" as to changing out balance staffs. I've seen lot's of tools on 2nd-hand websites, many of them I've no idea about what they are, how they work, where they are used for, in which condition they are, whether I ever may need them or whether they come at a bargain or not.

As you said, by the time you need them, become aware of what they are and their function, they often aren't there. It's also a bit hard to guess / predict what else I may need in the future?

For sure, now I will keep an eye on proper truing calibers. I've seen quite a few in the past, never knew exactly their function, their price and never thought I would ever needed one.

Some tools are simply out and will stay out of my reach, I can only dream about them. In those cases ways around them have to be found, 100% ideal or not. A to one's best abilities attempt is better then doing nothing and it adds to the experience / learning curve and the awareness of what's out there.

Through the years you've always been a great help with that

Edited February 28, 2023 by Endeavor

[oldhippy]

If you are not sure about the tool you can always ask on here. 

 

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, Endeavor said:

Very true, but often one see tools, plenty of them, of which I don't even know I may require them in the future. It was never my intention to go as "deep" as to changing out balance staffs. I've seen lot's of tools on 2nd-hand websites, many of them I've no idea about what they are, how they work, where the are used for, in which condition they are, whether I ever may need them or whether they come at a bargain or not.

that's not the watch repair spirit you're supposed to have. It's a well-known fact that all watch repair people have acquired tools that they have zero idea what they are. So acquiring tools that you have zero idea whether you're ever going to use them or not is your destiny in watch repair.

or basically as you acquire tools from other watchmakers like buying a box of miscellaneous

end up with miscellaneous tools that somebody several generations back thought was important for some purpose and that purpose has long ago been lost in time and space. That's because whoever you purchase from purchase tools from somebody else who got them from somebody else who dabbled in something else. so yes is your destiny embrace your destiny but it would be nice if you did have tools that actually have a use in whatever your currently doing.

[VWatchie]

On 2/27/2023 at 5:46 PM, mikepilk said:

New tools are not always required - there's plenty of good quality older stuff on ebay

I have found that used tools on eBay carrying the name Bergeon, Horia, and a few others, most of the time are as good as new tools. So, Kudos to those of you who are prepared to stand up for the team and buy the Bergeon and Horia stuff which you later sell on eBay to me!