Carriage Clock help

[oldhippy]

You are doing very well the better you get it the better the clock will preform. One can only do ones best. 

[tyl]

Great forum and excellent help.  Will follow up.

About oiling - are those four or so points on the back plate the only things that need oiling?  

 

[oldhippy]

You need to oil the escape wheel teeth every other one so the pallet pins will catch some. The two cups that the balance wheel sits in a pocket watch oil for them. Here is the back plate which I have marked for you in red, these places need oil and the same on the other plate, just be careful not to over fill the oil sinks as you don't want the oil to run out over the plates. WIndels clock oil is the best. Don't for get to oil the mainspring in side the barrel. 

Edited June 1, 2023 by oldhippy

[tyl]

Excellent.  Thx for the help.

 

[tyl]

Success; it is running again.  Your help is much appreciated.  And I learned a lot.  For one thing - I am no clockmaker and have a lot of respect for those who are.

After repairing the hairspring tediously the first time, I installed the balance wheel and with tweezers finally got it to thread into the regulator stud - a very small hole.  Tested and it absolutely would not run - at all.  Then I noticed that the hairspring was all out of kilter again.

Removed the balance wheel again and spent about seven hours on the hairspring for the second time.  Reinstalled the balance wheel again, tested, and it did the same - would not run at all.  Again noticed the hairspring was all out of kilter.

So I went to Youtube and watched a video of a fellow removing a Westclox balance wheel;  it is found as "Westclox balance wheel remove and install."   I then realized that I have been deforming the hairspring by pulling it through the regulator tab with tweezers and into the regulator stud - that if the hairspring is coiled properly it should thread into both.

And that solved everything.  Reluctantly I removed the balance wheel again and this time with less enthusiasm reformed the hairspring again (see picture).  I spent about four hours on the hairspring this time and it is significantly poorer than my  other two efforts.  But it threaded into the regulator tab and was less than 1 mm away from threading perfectly into the regulator stud hole.  (Even though I did not remove the hairspring from the balance wheel, after reinstallation I noticed that the pallet pin(?) was oriented at the bottom and would not click the paddle(?) so the minute hand would not advance.  Referring to the youtube video, I placed a small screwdriver blade in the collet crack and rotated the balance wheel so that the pallet pin is on the top.  That worked.)

When I wound and started the clock again, it would only run for about 50 clicks.  After experimenting with the regulator some ten to fifteen times back and forth, it seemed to take life with the regulator (surprisingly) at exactly the twelve o'clock position.  It has now run for seventeen hours and I call it good.  The hairspring is no longer beautiful but seems to be good enough.

To everyone, thank you again for your help.  I have now breathed life into this old clock after many years and have a much greater appreciation for the craftsmanship of the maker.

 

Edited June 6, 2023 by tyl
Corrections

[oldhippy]

That looks better for a first time. For what its worth I started back in the early 70's as an apprentice I did a 5 year apprenticeship then another 2 years as an improver learning all about watches and clocks this included making certain parts for watches and clocks. 

[tyl]

Not signing off.  I just plan to take a break.  Will be back.

[tyl]

The clock is running but quite fast.  I saw a post by Vich from about 2015 and he had the same 8 day Schatz carriage clock.  Now  I am wondering if it is possible to purchase another hairspring or a complete balance wheel with hairspring.

 

Have searched the internet for a week and find nothing.  Not even in China.

 

Thx for the help. Or do I dare remove the hairspring again and try to get it in better shape?  

[oldhippy]

From what I can see where you have pinned the hairspring it has a lot that is passed the pin.  What you need to do is unpin it, remove the complete balance, mark the wheel so you know on the wheel where the hairspring was pinned,  then judge where it needs to be pinned nearer to the end of the hairspring, this will make the balance out of beat so remove the hairspring and re position to the mark. Because you have let the hairspring out it will gain less time in fact it should lose. if it is keeping better time you should be able to use the proper regulator to adjust  time.

This is a trial and error practice it might take a few goes. 

Edited June 21, 2023 by oldhippy

[tyl]

Excellent; will take a look.

Thx for the help.

 

[HectorLooi]

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/hairsprings-clock

I got a box of these from Cousins. Only used 1 so far to replace a really mangled hairspring. The quality isn't great but useable in a pinch.

But you will have to do minor alterations like broaching or closing the collet to fit the arbor. Then you'll need to "vibrate" the hairspring to get the correct length. And you'll need to form the endcurve. 

Perhaps you should get a box to get some practice on hairspring work.

[tyl]

The pic was deceiving.  The hairspring extended only about 1mm from the stud and pin.  I removed the pin and backed out the balance wheel until the hairspring does not extend at all and pinned it again.  Now I am testing it again.  The hairspring cannot be let out more.

It was not a happy camper.  I had to adjust the regulator a few times but now it has run all night.  Still gaining about the same amount of time.

(Because I lost the pin weeks ago I have used a vinyl coated wire as a pin.  What you can see mostly in the old pin is that stripped wire which extended some 2mm; it took a close visual to see the difference in the new wire pin and the hairspring.  I ordered some pins but when they arrived they were way, way too thick.   So I am going to stick with the wire.)

I am still trying to understand the last directions from oldhippy.  But if the hairspring cannot be let out more, I am not sure there is anything I can do.

 

[oldhippy]

9 hours ago, tyl said:

The pic was deceiving.  The hairspring extended only about 1mm from the stud and pin.  I removed the pin and backed out the balance wheel until the hairspring does not extend at all and pinned it again.  Now I am testing it again.  The hairspring cannot be let out more.

It was not a happy camper.  I had to adjust the regulator a few times but now it has run all night.  Still gaining about the same amount of time.

(Because I lost the pin weeks ago I have used a vinyl coated wire as a pin.  What you can see mostly in the old pin is that stripped wire which extended some 2mm; it took a close visual to see the difference in the new wire pin and the hairspring.  I ordered some pins but when they arrived they were way, way too thick.   So I am going to stick with the wire.)

I am still trying to understand the last directions from oldhippy.  But if the hairspring cannot be let out more, I am not sure there is anything I can do.

 

Which part do you not understand?

[HectorLooi]

I think the endcurve is not shaped properly and the 2nd coil touches the hairspring stud when the hairspring expands. Check that the 2nd coil has enough distance from the stud. Perhaps you could tighten up the coils a little more and try to get more even spacing between the coils. Use the distance between the inner coils as a reference.

[transporter]

Having haphazardly followed this thread I have to ask, are you removing the hairspring to manipulate it?

if you are you need to start at the first incorrect bend in the spring that’s closest to the collet and get that true and work you’re way around until it’s perfect. 
You will find that the bent out of shape spring is probably not acting as it should with the index pin on the regulator

[tyl]

Transporter and Hector - after close examination I think you are right; it looks like coil 2 from the outside may be touching coil 3 at about the 9:00 spot (it is not touching the regulator stud).  A close inspection shows that the coils on the 9:00 side are significantly closer together than on the 3:00 side.  So close that I cannot tell for sure if more than coil 2 and 3 are touching - but now I believe it is only coil 3. 

  I have worked the hairspring without removing it from the balance wheel.     Granted from the last pic I sent it looks pretty bad.  For example coil 1 is some 3X farther from coil 2 than coil 2 is from coil 3.  And overall the hairspring distance from the balance wheel spine to the outside is about 50% greater on the 3:00 side. Spent probably 30 hours trying to correct it. 

The first two times I defeated my effort by pulling it through the regulator slot and the stud not knowing that it should be carefully fed through the slot and stud by moving the balance wheel.  The third time I fed it through successfully; however I ran out of patience before that and spent much less time trying to true the hairspring.  The hairspring looks pretty poor; much more so than my first effort.  That is why I asked about the possibility of finding a new one.

My 6 June post shows the hairspring at last effort.  This is what is in now and it is running but still gaining about 10-15 minutes each twelve hours.  I really dread taking it out and working on it again - but if the forum agrees that it looks too  bad to keep good time, maybe I will do so.  Putting it off for now.  Oh for a new hairspring

Oldhippy - not sure what you mean about mark where it was pinned.   "... so you know on the wheel where the hairspring was pinned,  then judge where it needs to be pinned nearer to the end of the hairspring..."    With the balance wheel removed how would I know where the hairspring was previously pinned?  Would there be a crimp in the hairspring?  But now I have straightened it out and recurved it three times and have repinned three times.  At present none of the hairspring extends out the other side of the regulator stud; it is pinned at the absolute end of the hairspring.  I cannot let it out any more.  

If you take another look at the 6 June post maybe you will judge that the hairspring is just not repaired/recurved well enough.  Since I cannot let the hairspring out any more, I am guessing that I created my own problem by doing such a mediocre repair of the hairspring.

If you will review the post just above, you will see that the right side of the hairspring is a good deal looser than the left side.  It certainly does not look like that in 6 June post, in fact it looks pretty evenly balanced, but after installation and pinning, it looks somewhat unbalanced now.

From youtube video - locate wide spot in hairspring and go 180 degrees to the other side; make correction there.  Do you agree?    Not intuitive.  Or do I just start at the wide spot to begin the recurving?

Thanks to all for the help.  Need to reset the clock ten minutes earlier now.  Any way to send a video of the clock running through this forum?

[tyl]

Must take a break now.  My Disco II is immobilized and I need to figure out what to do.

 

Will return.

[tyl]

Just an update.  Clock runs beautifully now, if a bit fast.  I am at the bottom of the pendulum rod so unable to slow it down more.  Will live with it.  

In any event, pretty happy and appreciate the forum help.

[RichardHarris123]

Well done, as long as you're satisfied, it's all that matters. 

[tyl]

Oops, that comment was about my mantel clock but I am happy with the carriage clock too.  And it runs a bit fast.  Not a problem.  Two clocks working now.