Carriage Clock help

[tyl]

I have this 8 day Schatz carriage clock.  How do I remove the winder so that I can remove and oil the mechanism?  It goes through the glass on the back of the clock.

 

Thx.

[oldhippy]

The winder to wind up the movement unscrews and the hand set just pulls off. It would have been helpful to others to have shown the back of the clock members would have been able to see what you are referring to.

These movements tend to wear because the spring is so powerful, the great wheel next to the barrel is normally the problem the hole wears and the pivot wears too. The other main problem is the balance pivots they become blunt and need to be re-pointed in a lathe in order for the balance wheel to have a good action.  

[tyl]

Thank you for the quick response.   The clock winds counterclockwise.  Therefore you are saying that the winder has reverse threads?  That is I wind it clockwise to unscrew the winder?  I tried that and it is so tight that I was afraid I might break the winder (tried this prior to your kind response).  Should I put some WD40 on the winder and try again?

 

Pic of the rear is attached.

 

Again, appreciate your response.

[oldhippy]

I have never known the the key to be that tight. I'm wondering if someone has super glued it. Try wd40. What ever you do never use that stuff to oil clocks. Windles clock oil is the best.  

[tyl]

Very good.  Thank you.

[watchweasol]

Hi  If it remains tight try warming the key head with a soldering Iron, if it has been glued or loctited on it will help to release the glue. keep trying after each application.  If it winds counter clockwise the key should unscrew clockwise. As OldHippy said they are not normally that tight so be careful.   cheers

[tyl]

Good news.  WD40 worked.  Plan to remove the mechanism, clean, and lightly oil.  I have 3in1 oil (not clock oil) and assume that will work.  Happy to get the winder to loosen up tonight.

[oldhippy]

That is good news. 3 in 1 is to thick. Buy a small bottle of Windles. You will also need a some pocket watch oil for the balance pivots because they run in jewels. The two cups that the balance pivots operate in. 

[tyl]

Good info.  Interesting point - the clock is running now after adjusting the fast/slow pointer on the front of the clock.  However it runs a bit fast.  By experimentation I have found that the clock will not run if I move the pointer either way - toward faster or toward slower.  So I have to set it back about 5 minutes each morning.  I realize that is a lot of adjustment but at least it runs now.  

 

Wife says to leave well enough alone.  I am guessing that the brass plate hole (holding the speed adjustment spindle) is no longer perfectly round and that a sweet spot now exists where the clock runs but does not keep time perfectly.  And cannot be repaired by a novice.

 

Again thanks for your help; much appreciated.

[oldhippy]

The hairspring should move up and down no matter where the regulator is. I like to call it that it bounces between the regulator, also the hairspring should never go out of shape no matter when you move the regulator.    

[tyl]

Thursday - 8AM.  The clock has run for two days now but gains 10 minutes over a 12 hour period.  Have not removed it from the case to oil.  Reluctant to adjust the pointer to make it run slower; the last time I did this the clock stopped running (took two days adjusting the pointer to get it to run again).  Will continue to monitor and report.  

 

 

Good info.  Interesting point - the clock is running now after adjusting the fast/slow pointer on the front of the clock.  However it runs a bit fast.  By experimentation I have found that the clock will not run if I move the pointer either way - toward faster or toward slower.  So I have to set it back about 5 minutes each morning.  I realize that is a lot of adjustment but at least it runs now.  

 

Wife says to leave well enough alone.  I am guessing that the brass plate hole (holding the speed adjustment spindle) is no longer perfectly round and that a sweet spot now exists where the clock runs but does not keep time perfectly.  And cannot be repaired by a novice.

 

Again thanks for your help; much appreciated.

[oldhippy]

Before playing around trying to regulate it, I would give it a full service first, than take it from there, you never know it might put it right. 

[tyl]

Thursday -noon.   Good advice.

 

Thx.

 

 

Thursday - 8AM.  The clock has run for two days now but gains 10 minutes over a 12 hour period.  Have not removed it from the case to oil.  Reluctant to adjust the pointer to make it run slower; the last time I did this the clock stopped running (took two days adjusting the pointer to get it to run again).  Will continue to monitor and report.  

 

 

Good info.  Interesting point - the clock is running now after adjusting the fast/slow pointer on the front of the clock.  However it runs a bit fast.  By experimentation I have found that the clock will not run if I move the pointer either way - toward faster or toward slower.  So I have to set it back about 5 minutes each morning.  I realize that is a lot of adjustment but at least it runs now.  

 

Wife says to leave well enough alone.  I am guessing that the brass plate hole (holding the speed adjustment spindle) is no longer perfectly round and that a sweet spot now exists where the clock runs but does not keep time perfectly.  And cannot be repaired by a novice.

 

Again thanks for your help; much appreciated.

[tyl]

Waiting for oil to arrive.  Just adjusted it to run slower and it worked - it completely stopped in five minutes.  Put it back to the original and it is running again.

[oldhippy]

That is why I always recommend a full service.  

[tyl]

The clock was removed and inspected.  None of the apertures in the back brass plate shows any dirt like I have seen in online videos.  I lightly oiled each from the back and did not remove the faceplate fearing I could not get it back together and working.  After a few days of constant running, I moved the timing adjuster (regulator?) to the right or toward the minus sign to make it run slower.  

Bad idea.  It stopped running immediately although I had only moved the adjuster about three-eights inch to the right or toward the minus sign.  Over two days I moved it slowly back to the left in very small increments until it started to run again.  It is running again with the adjuster approximately one-eight inch past (to the right of)  the high noon mark and it gains about ten minutes per day.  Video attached shows it running and the adjuster should be clearly seen (it pivots from the center of the spring fed wheel.

Why will it not run adjusted toward slowing the mechanism?  Any idea would be appreciated.  

And I appreciate your comments.  

Oh no, looks like this forum may not accept a video.  Still trying.  Not possible, regrets.

[oldhippy]

It sounds to me that it is possible the hairspring isn't free in the regulator and when you move it it is infringing the hairspring.  Check that the hairspring is free in the regulator no mater where the regulator is, hairspring should move freely from side to side no mater what position, it also has to be flat so it isn't fouling the balance wheel or the balance cock. 

Try that first and let me know.   

[tyl]

The clock was removed and inspected.  None of the apertures in the back brass plate shows any dirt like I have seen in online videos.  I lightly oiled each from the back and did not remove the faceplate fearing I could not get it back together and working.  After a few days of constant running, I moved the timing adjuster (regulator?) to the right or toward the minus sign to make it run slower.  

Bad idea.  It stopped running immediately although I had only moved the adjuster about three-eights inch to the right or toward the minus sign.  Over two days I moved it slowly back to the left in very small increments until it started to run again.  It is running again with the adjuster approximately one-eight inch past (to the right of)  the high noon mark and it gains about ten minutes per day.  Video attached shows it running and the adjuster should be clearly seen (it pivots from the center of the spring fed wheel.

Why will it not run adjusted toward slowing the mechanism?  Any idea would be appreciated.  

And I appreciate your comments.  

Oh no, looks like this forum may not accept a video.  Still trying.  Not possible, regrets.

Thank you.  Those are new terms and I need to look up the meaning.  Will report back.

[tyl]

Update.  It is running well but gains five minutes per day.  Still slowly trying to adjust it slower; each time it stops running and I have to go back.  Still trying  but happy to see it run again.  I feel like I brought it back to life after who knows how much long it has been inactive.

[tyl]

The hairspring is perfectly flat and seems to be free from any impediment.  The clock is still gaining some 10-15 minutes per day.  I am adjusting it toward the minus sign to make it run slower and am just beginning to make a record each day.  Is it OK to move the regulator say 45 degrees or even 90 degrees to the right (toward the minus sign)? Or should I stop at say 45 degrees from top dead center?  Thx.

[oldhippy]

Can't you let the hairspring out? Clocks with this type of regulator including all carriage type  it is common practice that the regulator is set near or on the middle. There is a reason why it is gaining so much but if you find it, what you are saying is your only way then go ahead but it will look odd to the eye. Has it a good action, as this can cause problems, check the balance pivots, they should be as sharp as a new pencil, how about the two jewels they must be clean are they cracked or chipped.    

Edited May 26, 2023 by oldhippy

[HectorLooi]

With the balance stationary, when you move the regulator left or right, it should be able to travel the whole length without touching the hairspring. If you observe the hairspring moving when you move the regulator, the hairspring is distorted. 

Check that first before we move on.

[tyl]

Attaching pic w arrows to make sure I am using the proper naming conventions.  Hairspring top arrow and regulator bottom arrow.  Will check later to make sure the hairspring is not moving at all when I adjust the regulator; ie not touching the regulator.

[tyl]

Great; will take a look.  Thx.

 

 

 

Tested it this AM.  When I move the regulator toward the minus sign, I can see the hairspring coil and become tighter.  When moved toward the plus sign, the hairspring gets noticeably bigger and more spread out.  Obviously the regulator is tied to the end of the hairspring and pulls it tighter or releases; therefore I am not sure how to move the regulator without moving the hairspring.

With the regulator about 30 degrees toward the minus, it gained eight minutes time in twenty four hours.

Did I misread an earlier post asking if I let the hairspring out?  I think letting it out; ie spread out and less coiled would make the clock run faster.

Is this not correct?  If not, I have been making the adjustment in the wrong direction.

Apparently there is a reply by Willow which I cannot find; received an email notice.  Having a hard time navigating this website.

[HectorLooi]

Your regulator sounds like it might be damaged. There should be a small gap between the regulator for the hairspring to lie in. It should not be touching or pinching the hair spring at rest. When the regulator is moved left or right, the regulator should be able slide freely along the hairspring, thus the hairspring should not move at all.