Favorite brand mainspring winders and double checking before I pull the trigger on my first bergeon ones.

[rossjackson01]

Excuse my ignorance. Left or right wind.

If the spring is inserted the 'wrong way, upside down, then will the insert into the barrel be the correct way?

Edited February 23, 2023 by rossjackson01

[MechanicMike]

37 minutes ago, rossjackson01 said:

Excuse my ignorance. Left or right wind.

If the spring is inserted the 'wrong way, upside down, then will the insert into the barrel be the correct way?

It might feel or look right but  you'll find out soon after because the mainspring won't take any power (click click click slippage). pay close attention as to which rotation direction the mainspring comes out of the barrel during take down. I've even gone so far as to make a drawing as to which way the mainspring came out of the barrel, for when it comes time for re-assembly because my memory sucks. or, take a pic of it. 

8 minutes ago, MechanicMike said:

It might feel or look right but  you'll find out soon after because the mainspring won't take any power (click click click slippage). pay close attention as to which rotation direction the mainspring comes out of the barrel during take down. I've even gone so far as to make a drawing as to which way the mainspring came out of the barrel, for when it comes time for re-assembly because my memory sucks. or, take a pic of it. 

Mark, our host has a good video on it. check it out. 

this helped me out awhile back.

https://blog.esslinger.com/how-to-wind-a-mainspring-with-the-bergeon-mainspring-winders/

[JohnR725]

7 hours ago, valleyguy said:

Is the set left or right handed, i've looked at the photos and i can''t tell, will new bergeon arbors work with favorite winders you could get a set of new arbours then you have the option of both left and right, if i knew they were compatable i may be tempted to have a bid

typically the sets will be a right-handed because that's the most common. I'm not sure if the older style winders even had a left-handed.

then how close to they compare? I thought I mentioned up above at work we actually have the identical favorite set complete with the label that says who made it except of course I doubt that that you made it there purchased from who knows where because the maker doesn't actually say who makes them. then I took the bergeon for comparison and there's a tiny bit a difference in the vintage handles in that when it's inserts into the barrel it has a little greater taper at the end but as far as functionality goes there identical I took a micrometer out in their identical in size you can't tell the difference between either barrel other than our vintage set looks vintage and has some discoloration from surface rust at one time but otherwise there identical well okay technically though not the handles for bergeon have that stamped on the handles available as just have the number stamped on them but yes they will interchange fees are all made by the same company just much longer ago.

 

[Birbdad]

On 2/23/2023 at 12:10 PM, valleyguy said:

Is the set left or right handed, i've looked at the photos and i can''t tell, will new bergeon arbors work with favorite winders you could get a set of new arbours then you have the option of both left and right, if i knew they were compatable i may be tempted to have a bid.

Yeah I have no idea man. The lady selling them says dont' even ask her questions because she has no idea what any of this stuff is. I looked around the internet for this brand and found nothing. 
I would wager if you work on a lot of swiss stuff these might be useful. I mostly work on japanese. Since i will pass here's the link for anybody brave enough to try it. https://www.ebay.com/itm/165942189672 

 

 

On 2/23/2023 at 5:01 PM, MechanicMike said:

yup. supply and demand, and because people WILL pay to buy it. 

Boy i tell ya. Seems like anybody with a cnc machine and a little knowledge of heat treating is just leaving money on the table there...

On 2/23/2023 at 5:18 PM, rossjackson01 said:

Excuse my ignorance. Left or right wind.

If the spring is inserted the 'wrong way, upside down, then will the insert into the barrel be the correct way?

Man i'm still a little confused about this. Best i can tell some mainsprings are right or left handed which is basically the direction of the spiral when it's inserted. 
From what i understand you need right and left handed mainsrping arbors, handles and winders to wind them. But now somebody is saying there are winders that are neutral and can work with either a left or right handed arbor? That it works but i'ts not ideal? 

I would love it if the youtube channel or mark or somebody did a full video just explaining how to pick the correct mainspring winder. I saw the vid mark did and it went into it a little bit and was an amazing video on how to use the damn thing but i would love something more in depth. 
 

ALso seriously we should ALL group together and make a google doc and just keep adding every caliber to to it that we know the correct winder parts for. 

[aac58]

30 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

somebody is saying there are winders that are neutral and can work with either a left or right handed arbor?

The winder "barrel" is neutral, there's no a right or left one, what is right or left is the arbor, because the hook on it to catch the spring is pointing in one direction or the other.

30 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

I would love it if the youtube channel or mark or somebody did a full video

How about this one?

 

Edited February 25, 2023 by aac58

[rossjackson01]

On 2/23/2023 at 11:18 PM, rossjackson01 said:

Excuse my ignorance. Left or right wind.

If the spring is inserted the 'wrong way, upside down, then will the insert into the barrel be the correct way?

The reason I asked the above question. I spend most of my learning time on Seiko, which as most know, the mainspring winds the other way to eta etc,. I have a Chinese set of 10 winders which does for the eta etc. The Seiko's I try by hand. Snapped many. Not impressed with myself. Can't understand why, in answer, there would be no power in and upside down install. Not tried it, nor will I. Just looking for information.

[mikepilk]

3 minutes ago, rossjackson01 said:

The reason I asked the above question. I spend most of my learning time on Seiko, which as most know, the mainspring winds the other way to eta etc,. I have a Chinese set of 10 winders which does for the eta etc. The Seiko's I try by hand. Snapped many. Not impressed with myself. Can't understand why, in answer, there would be no power in and upside down install. Not tried it, nor will I. Just looking for information.

If it's the opposite wind, like Seiko:  use the normal winder, push the spring in to a suitably sized washer, turn it over, and push in to barrel. 

I only have a small set of winders, so I made a reverse wind arbor out of brass, just using a saw, drill and a file. It's not difficult. 

 

[rossjackson01]

4 hours ago, mikepilk said:

If it's the opposite wind, like Seiko:  use the normal winder, push the spring in to a suitably sized washer, turn it over, and push in to barrel. 

I only have a small set of winders, so I made a reverse wind arbor out of brass, just using a saw, drill and a file. It's not difficult. 

 

 

I like the idea the first one. I'll make a washer and colour one side so I know which way to insert. 

Second paragraph. How do you make the spigot for the spring hole. Not that I'll try. Just interested. Believe it or not, I have no facility for a vice.

[mikepilk]

2 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

I like the idea the first one. I'll make a washer and colour one side so I know which way to insert. 

Second paragraph. How do you make the spigot for the spring hole. Not that I'll try. Just interested. Believe it or not, I have no facility for a vice.

The washer method is standard practice. I always keep the washers when I buy new springs.

For the winders I made:  I bought some 0.8mm brass sheet, and brass rod - I made two using 3mm and 3.5mm brass rods. To shape the arbor end, or reduce the diameter, stick it in a drill chuck, and use some wet and dry. I used 1.2mm screws to screw the arbor and handle on. And a bit of steel for the spring prong bit - I drilled a small hole and hammered think a bit of needle in. 

[rossjackson01]

5 hours ago, mikepilk said:

The washer method is standard practice. I always keep the washers when I buy new springs.

Thank you. Had not thought of that. Logical really. Guess I'm slow.

[Birbdad]

Whelp i'm super impatient with more money than sense (and i don't got much money) and considering every store seemingly in the world was sold out of the left No6 and ONLY the left number 6 for some bizarre reason and it would be about a month till anybody got one one in, i ended up ordering a right no6 and then a left 6 arbor which basically doubled the cost of getting the damn thing but whatever. I'm sure there's something else down the road that will need a right no 5 and now i'll have one. 

Really thinking i will probably go to horology school and get serious about this. MIght as well start acquiring tools.

[rossjackson01]

Adaption of the comment from  Mikepilk.

I purchased some brass washers and have spent some time filing out the innards to fit the outer size of each of the Chinese winders. I now have the facility to place 10 different size springs left or right. It would have been too long to wait whilst I purchased springs of each size. Total cost £6.69p.

[rossjackson01]

Just for information. I was unable to update my post with a picture of the washers I had made to use for reversing springs into barrels. Took me a about half a day of filing. Using a small half round file from the Draper mini file set. Sore fingers tips and no fingerprints on parts of my left finger tips. I have left the washers visible to show which I used M6, M8 and M10. You can see them placed on the barrel insert just below the winder on each. 

Not used them yet. But got them for future use. Another DIY project completed.

Ross

[mikepilk]

7 minutes ago, rossjackson01 said:

Just for information. I was unable to update my post with a picture of the washers I had made to use for reversing springs into barrels. Took me a about half a day of filing. Using a small half round file from the Draper mini file set. Sore fingers tips and no fingerprints on parts of my left finger tips. I have left the washers visible to show which I used M6, M8 and M10. You can see them placed on the barrel insert just below the winder on each. 

Not used them yet. But got them for future use. Another DIY project completed.

Ross

 

Well done. An easier way is to keep the washers that new springs come in, but they are not very thick, and it can be a bit fiddly to get the spring in. Yours look a bit thicker, so a probably better.

[rossjackson01]

10 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

Well done. An easier way is to keep the washers that new springs come in, but they are not very thick, and it can be a bit fiddly to get the spring in. Yours look a bit thicker, so a probably better.

Thank you for your comment. Much appreciated. Would have been too expensive to get springs for the sized winders, plus a long time to wait.  A lot of fun doing the DIY  though.

[mikepilk]

1 minute ago, rossjackson01 said:

Thank you for your comment. Much appreciated. Would have been too expensive to get springs for the sized winders, plus a long time to wait.  A lot of fun doing the DIY  though.

If you like DIY, and there's a particular size you use a lot (e.g. Seiko), you could have a go at making a winder. I did it without a lathe, only a hand drill.

[rossjackson01]

1 minute ago, mikepilk said:

If you like DIY, and there's a particular size you use a lot (e.g. Seiko), you could have a go at making a winder. I did it without a lathe, only a hand drill.

Saw that. I'm not to your standard of skill. Long time to go before I could get there.

[valleyguy]

On 2/25/2023 at 10:48 AM, mikepilk said:

If it's the opposite wind, like Seiko:  use the normal winder, push the spring in to a suitably sized washer, turn it over, and push in to barrel. 

I only have a small set of winders, so I made a reverse wind arbor out of brass, just using a saw, drill and a file. It's not difficult. 

 

Mike what did you use to latch the mainspring to the arbor,  i'll have ago at making a couple of these.

[mikepilk]

27 minutes ago, valleyguy said:

Mike what did you use to latch the mainspring to the arbor,  i'll have ago at making a couple of these.

The top and handle are made from 0.8mm brass sheet. The arbors and handle from brass rod - I made one 3.5mm and one 2.8mm.

The arbor and handle are held on with 1.2mm screws (Cousins part S48390) - drill 1.0mm holes and use a 1.2mm tap (Cousins part T48756). I used Loctite on the arbor screw.

The tab to catch the mainspring coil - I drilled a 1mm hole (a bit tricky with a hand held drill)  and tapped a 1.2mm hole then screwed in a 1.2mm screw. Chopped the top off, and filed to shape.

 

[valleyguy]

Thanks mike for the extra photos and description, nifty trick using the screw to create the hook, i will make a couple of left hand arbors.

Cousins are selling the bergeon left hand arbors alone for more than they sell the left hand winder and arbor together, it just don't make sense.

[mikepilk]

5 minutes ago, valleyguy said:

Thanks mike for the extra photos and description, nifty trick using the screw to create the hook, i will make a couple of left hand arbors.

Cousins are selling the bergeon left hand arbors alone for more than they sell the left hand winder and arbor together, it just don't make sense.

They are a bit rough, but do the job.  I made them after a couple of failed attempts to use the "washer method" - either I couldn't find a washer the correct size, or both washer and spring flying across the room.

Good luck - post a pic when done.

[MechanicMike]

On 2/25/2023 at 4:39 AM, rossjackson01 said:

. Can't understand why, in answer, there would be no power in and upside down install. Not tried it, nor will I. Just looking for information.

because the mainspring barrel  arbor notch or hook is uni-directional, grabbing the mainspring in one direction or another. if it's wrong you'll just keep winding past the hook hole without catching. in pocketwatches(which is where I mostly hang out) you can actually hear it "click click." tells ya how many times I've installed em backwards lol

[JohnR725]

34 minutes ago, MechanicMike said:

because the mainspring barrel  arbor notch or hook is uni-directional, grabbing the mainspring in one direction or another.

 

maybe I'm having a dyslexia moment and reading this backwards? On vintage watches a lot of times it's just a pin sticking out the same as a lot of mainspring winders have a pin in which case you can wind in either direction. But typically arbors have a shape so they can only grab the spring in one direction. so if somehow the spring goes in backwards it won't catch and it would just slip forever making that familiar clicking sound which is good versus destruction if you could actually wind it backwards.

 

[MechanicMike]

On 3/29/2023 at 4:05 PM, JohnR725 said:

 

maybe I'm having a dyslexia moment and reading this backwards? On vintage watches a lot of times it's just a pin sticking out the same as a lot of mainspring winders have a pin in which case you can wind in either direction. But typically arbors have a shape so they can only grab the spring in one direction. so if somehow the spring goes in backwards it won't catch and it would just slip forever making that familiar clicking sound which is good versus destruction if you could actually wind it backwards.

 

maybe I didn't explain it right but yup, what john said.  

uni-directional-one direction. or it just slips.