Favorite brand mainspring winders and double checking before I pull the trigger on my first bergeon ones.

[Birbdad]

So i'm always scouring ebay for good deals on tools and this turned up and it looks interestign and the price is good. It's a swiss brand called Favorite and there's a bergeon mixed into it. it's from the wife of a watchmaker who I assume has passed on. ANybody know anything about this? I'm assuming it's probably not a great idea because there doesn't appear to be left/right handed parts and one of my primary interests is seikos which are left handed often. Mainspring winders are a pretty big source of confusion as far as knowing what the correct one is. The description says they're numbered from 00 to 15. No idea what that is even referring to.


Since I'm probably going to just go with ordering individual bergeon parts (I'm really thinking about going to horology school and getting serious about this I enjoy it so much So i might as well start assembling quality tools.) I'm currently looking to get the mainspring winder parts for the seiko 7s26 and seiko 7006a movements. I was told for the 7s26 that I want a left handed handle, to buy the left handed No 7 10.8mm winder and the left handed no6 left handed arbor. 

I've seen posts online saying that the 700x and 7s26 mainsprings will use the same winder set and i've seen some say they don't. Can anybody confirm if this will work for the same caliber? I got them in my cousins basket and i'm ready to order i just want to be 100% sure this is correct.
 

Also on a side note, it would be a real service to the community of budding watchmakers and even pros to assemble a google doc that has EVERY known caliber and every known combination of winder parts to fit them. I would be happy to make a thread and spearhead that. I know some of the docs people have made here with caliber parts and versions have been immensely helpful.

[aac58]

For Seiko 7xxx movements I use the Bergeon #6 winder with a left hand arbor. For 61xx movements I use a #7 winder with a #6 right hand arbour, you can use a #7 RH arbour too, but it's a bit too big and there's a risk to deform the inner coil of the spring.

I also use the #6 winder with the 66/6602 barrels, a #5 would be a better option but I don't have one.

[Birbdad]

1 hour ago, aac58 said:

For Seiko 7xxx movements I use the Bergeon #6 winder with a left hand arbor. For 61xx movements I use a #7 winder with a #6 right hand arbour, you can use a #7 RH arbour too, but it's a bit too big and there's a risk to deform the inner coil of the spring.

I also use the #6 winder with the 66/6602 barrels, a #5 would be a better option but I don't have one.

 Interesting, so you use the #6 winder and the #6 arbor? I  was told the #7 winder works better. The 6 works fine?

ALso am i correct that if you use a left handed handle you also want a left handed arbor and winder correct?

[aac58]

For 7xxx movements the #7 winder is too big and I don't think it will work but I haven't tried it, #6 works fine for me. For them I use a left #6 arbor, you have to be sure that it hooks the spring before inserting into the winder, seiko springs are narrow so you shouldn't press them to the end of the arbor.

I do not use a handle, I do not have one. Of course it would be a left hand handle should I have it.

[Birbdad]

2 minutes ago, aac58 said:

For 7xxx movements the #7 winder is too big and I don't think it will work but I haven't tried it, #6 works fine for me. For them I use a left #6 arbor, you have to be sure that it hooks the spring before inserting into the winder, seiko springs are narrow so you shouldn't press them to the end of the arbor.

I do not use a handle, I do not have one. Of course it would be a left hand handle should I have it.

Oh interesting. I had no idea you could even use them without a handle! 
I will order the 6's. I"m excited. Thanks so much guy!

[aac58]

Just now, Birbdad said:

Oh interesting. I had no idea you could even use them without a handle! 
I will order the 6's. I"m excited. Thanks so much guy!

It can be used, althought I guess using it is a much more pleasing experience. I do not like that Bergeon makes a different handle for right and left winders, they could have made a single tool, so by now I'm trying to live without them.

[Birbdad]

Just now, aac58 said:

It can be used, althought I guess using it is a much more pleasing experience. I do not like that Bergeon makes a different handle for right and left winders, they could have made a single tool, so by now I'm trying to live without them.

I hate a lot of things bergeon does. THey make so many tools that could just as easily be a 5 dollar screwdriver head replacement. 
Hand levers, etachron adjustment tools, stud removal tools, springbar tools, hand setting tools, there's so many that would work perfectly good as just something you put in the end of one of their screwdrivers when you need it. 
But why do that when you can charge 60 dollars for a steel rod.

[Waggy]

Having taken the plunge on a half set of Bergeons a while ago and working a lot on Seikos I can confirm that the winders are universal (left AND right handed). The arbor is left OR right handed. There are left (blue stripe) and right handles, but you can use the same handle for either left or right, but you just have to keep an eye out that it the winder doesn't slip out of the helix, but this has never happened to me.

So the cheapest option for you would be to buy a handle (left or right), a #6 and #7 (I think the numbers are diameter in mm) winder each to come with an arbor (left) and then buy just the right hand arbor. For some reason the combo arbor-winder in LH is the same price and the RH version, but the LH arbors by themselves are twice the price of the RH ones?!?!

Do your calculations on this price:

• Handle: £34.95 each on cousins
• Winder+Arbor LH: £47.50 each on cousins (#6 LH and #7 LH)
• Arbor only RH: £19.15 - £23.45 each on cousins (#6 RH, and #7 RH)

If I did my sums correctly I think all together this comes to about £180.00+ VAT + P&P

 

For reference the half set I got (Bergeon 5355) was £495.00 on cousins (0-6 in LH and 0-6 in RH with LH and RH handles included). I plan to add to this half set as and when I need them, this way I won't feel the pain all in one go.

I tried the generic Chinese winders, but they are caliber specific and I could never use them, hence the reason for paying out for the Bergeon non caliber ones.

Hope this helps

[Birbdad]

4 minutes ago, Waggy said:

Having taken the plunge on a half set of Bergeons a while ago and working a lot on Seikos I can confirm that the winders are universal (left AND right handed). The arbor is left OR right handed. There are left (blue stripe) and right handles, but you can use the same handle for either left or right, but you just have to keep an eye out that it the winder doesn't slip out of the helix, but this has never happened to me.

So the cheapest option for you would be to buy a handle (left or right), a #6 and #7 (I think the numbers are diameter in mm) winder each to come with an arbor (left) and then buy just the right hand arbor. For some reason the combo arbor-winder in LH is the same price and the RH version, but the LH arbors by themselves are twice the price of the RH ones?!?!

Do your calculations on this price:

• Handle: £34.95 each on cousins
• Winder+Arbor LH: £47.50 each on cousins (#6 LH and #7 LH)
• Arbor only RH: £19.15 - £23.45 each on cousins (#6 RH, and #7 RH)

If I did my sums correctly I think all together this comes to about £180.00+ VAT + P&P

 

For reference the half set I got (Bergeon 5355) was £495.00 on cousins (0-6 in LH and 0-6 in RH with LH and RH handles included). I plan to add to this half set as and when I need them, this way I won't feel the pain all in one go.

I tried the generic Chinese winders, but they are caliber specific and I could never use them, hence the reason for paying out for the Bergeon non caliber ones.

Hope this helps

Thank you so much for answering. THis is a bit confusing. If the winders are universal then why do they sell right and left hand versions of them?
So you're saying buy the left handed handle the #6 and #7 left handed winder SETS that each come with an arbor. THen to just buy the #6 right handed arbor? And this is to mix and match the #7 winder and the #6 arbor the cheapest way which one esteemed member here recommended. YOu're saying use a right handed arbor while the gentlemen above you says to use a left handed arbor. This really is pretty confusing haha.

What do you personally use for 7XXX seikos? Currently i have one vote for #6 winder and one for #7 winder being the correct one alongside one vote for #6 left handed arbor vs a #6 right handed arbor.

 

[Waggy]

Sorry for quoting in £'s but they will be the same as a US$ any day now. I searched high and low for non-caliber winders, but I could only see Bergeon ones. Keeping my fingers crossed that some cheaper brand starts making them in mm sizes instead of caliber!

 

[Birbdad]

1 minute ago, Waggy said:

Sorry for quoting in £'s but they will be the same as a US$ any day now. I searched high and low for non-caliber winders, but I could only see Bergeon ones. Keeping my fingers crossed that some cheaper brand starts making them in mm sizes instead of caliber!

 

Nah i don't have an issue with that. I'm just tryign to work my way through the conflicting information i'm getting to make sure i get the parts i need. This is one of the more confusing tool aspects of watchmaking as not a ton of people seem to talk about mainspring winders. I'm in the US so if i order the wrong thing from cousins i'm sorta stuck for months sometimes to order something else.

 

[Waggy]

Winder and arbor combined (get the LH ones) then you need only buy the cheaper RH arbors.

This one has a universal winder and a shows the (red) RH arbor, (but you should get the Blue LH version)

Handle, buy one - either RH or LH, whichever you feel you will use the most

Edited February 23, 2023 by Waggy

[JohnR725]

6 hours ago, Birbdad said:

I'm assuming it's probably not a great idea because there doesn't appear to be left/right handed parts and one of my primary interests is seikos which are left handed often.

one of the things to remember about bergeon is they typically just supply tools they don't manufacture them. So for instance the say you have looks familiar it looks like the set we have it work which is both good and bad.

The name Favorite on them is not the problem because it's the same quality as far as a teller identical sets which is typical but there's another problem. Well for me it would be a problem if it's super cheap then it's a good deal. The problem is there are three different handles for the winding set. There is the modern right-handed which is what most people are going to use. There is the left-handed as pointed out for Seiko and probably a few other things. Because you don't need an entire left-handed set you could just buy one or two handles. Then there is the vintage set as I will call it and this definitely looks like the vintage. One of the ways you can tell is you see the colored red and white dots on them like you find on the modern set? We would really need to see a picture of the handles. To the vintage has a much more aggressive looking apart than the modern style. I'm sure I have pictures lurking on the computer here somewhere. So are there pictures of the handles anywhere?

 

[Waggy]

Arbor - buy these in RH to work with your universal winder

Here is the half set I got, if you look carefully you can see that they only supply 7 winders, but 14 arbors and 2 handles

I mainly work on 7009, 6309 and 7S26/36 Seikos, I have only tried the #6 LH set and never tried mixing #6 and #7... but will give this a try on my next watch.

Edited February 23, 2023 by Waggy

[Birbdad]

22 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

one of the things to remember about bergeon is they typically just supply tools they don't manufacture them. So for instance the say you have looks familiar it looks like the set we have it work which is both good and bad.

The name Favorite on them is not the problem because it's the same quality as far as a teller identical sets which is typical but there's another problem. Well for me it would be a problem if it's super cheap then it's a good deal. The problem is there are three different handles for the winding set. There is the modern right-handed which is what most people are going to use. There is the left-handed as pointed out for Seiko and probably a few other things. Because you don't need an entire left-handed set you could just buy one or two handles. Then there is the vintage set as I will call it and this definitely looks like the vintage. One of the ways you can tell is you see the colored red and white dots on them like you find on the modern set? We would really need to see a picture of the handles. To the vintage has a much more aggressive looking apart than the modern style. I'm sure I have pictures lurking on the computer here somewhere. So are there pictures of the handles anywhere?

 

If you look at my OP that is pics of the vintage set. This is the best pic they provided of the handle. 

Doesn't look like there's room for two handles.


 

22 minutes ago, Waggy said:

Arbor - buy these in RH to work with your universal winder

Yeah i got which ones to get i'm just a bit confused about which ones to use and why. If i can understand better why you're recommending this i won't need to make a thread in the future. 
So I will have a 7 and 6 left handed arbor from those sets with the universal winders. Seiko uses left handed mainsprings so why do i need right handed arbors in addition to the left handed arbors that will come with the winder sets?
 

Edited February 23, 2023 by Birbdad

[aac58]

47 minutes ago, Waggy said:

(I think the numbers are diameter in mm

Not really, outer diameter of #6 is 9.8 mm, and #7 is 10.8 mm. #6 arbour is 3.0 mm diameter and #7 is 3.5 mm.

https://bhi.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/HJ-Mainspring-Winders.pdf

4 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

Seiko uses left handed mainsprings

Not always, for example 61xx and 63xx movements need right winder arbors.

Edited February 23, 2023 by aac58

[Birbdad]

2 minutes ago, aac58 said:

Not really, outer diameter of #6 is 9.8 mm, and #7 is 10.8 mm. #6 arbour is 3.0 mm diameter and #7 is 3.5 mm.

https://bhi.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/HJ-Mainspring-Winders.pdf

Not always, for example 61xx nad 63xx movements need right winder arbors.

Oh i guess i meant with the two calibers i'm trying to work on right now which would be 7006a and 7s26. 

This is so goddamned confusing haha. For those i want left handed arbors correct?

[aac58]

2 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

Oh i guess i meant with the two calibers i'm trying to work on right now which would be 7006a and 7s26. 

This is so goddamned confusing haha. For those i want left handed arbors correct?

Yes, 70xx and 7Sxx uses left arbors.

[Birbdad]

1 minute ago, aac58 said:

Yes, 70xx and 7Sxx uses left arbors.

Ok so then it looks like i just need the left handle and left no6 winder and arbor set. The only one cousins is sold out of haha.  Fantastic. Thanks all of you guys for your help i really do appreciate it so much I'll probably order the no7 set just in case and just to start building up a set bit by bit.

[Waggy]

18 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

If you look at my OP that is pics of the vintage set. This is the best pic they provided of the handle. 

Doesn't look like there's room for two handles.


 

Yeah i got which ones to get i'm just a bit confused about which ones to use and why. If i can understand better why you're recommending this i won't need to make a thread in the future. 
So I will have a 7 and 6 left handed arbor from those sets with the universal winders. Seiko uses left handed mainsprings so why do i need right handed arbors in addition to the left handed arbors that will come with the winder sets?
 

If you are only doing Seikos, you only need left hand, so you could skip the RH all together, but just in case you do any swiss stuff the RH would be useful

[Birbdad]

1 minute ago, Waggy said:

If you are only doing Seikos, you only need left hand, so you could skip the RH all together, but just in case you do any swiss stuff the RH would be useful

Oh yeah i intend to have a whole set eventually. I'm just sorta going on a get what i need right now basis. That clears up so much confusion!  But great to know i can get away with just getting arbors when i do get into swiss! You saved me a lot of money i bet! Right now i just got like 5 seikos on my bench, i'm learning on them and familiar with them.

[nickelsilver]

There were several makers who made the "Bergeon style" winders and from what I've seen they all interchange. Those Favorites should work with Bergeon parts. For left hand springs, you can try winding into a smaller winder barrel, then eject the spring into a larger one (that still fits your watch barrel), now it's reversed and correct. Likewise, you can save the retainer rings the springs come in, and eject into that (carefully), then into your barrel.

 

I never use the handle, but even the "right hand" one will work fine winding left hand springs, the barrels lock into place firmly. Maybe if winding a spring into the 15 barrel it could unlock, but normal wristwatch size no problem.

 

On these older sets it's worth checking the hook on the winder- I've found several that were way too long, makes hooking on the spring next to impossible, risks damaging the spring when winding, and makes unhooking almost impossible. It's OK to file them down, they really only need to stick out about a mainspring thickness.

 

And it's fine to use a smaller winder handle with a larger barrel, as long as the cap covers the barrel it works. Quite often the given winder handle is too large for the spring center.

[Birbdad]

1 minute ago, nickelsilver said:

There were several makers who made the "Bergeon style" winders and from what I've seen they all interchange. Those Favorites should work with Bergeon parts. For left hand springs, you can try winding into a smaller winder barrel, then eject the spring into a larger one (that still fits your watch barrel), now it's reversed and correct. Likewise, you can save the retainer rings the springs come in, and eject into that (carefully), then into your barrel.

 

I never use the handle, but even the "right hand" one will work fine winding left hand springs, the barrels lock into place firmly. Maybe if winding a spring into the 15 barrel it could unlock, but normal wristwatch size no problem.

 

On these older sets it's worth checking the hook on the winder- I've found several that were way too long, makes hooking on the spring next to impossible, risks damaging the spring when winding, and makes unhooking almost impossible. It's OK to file them down, they really only need to stick out about a mainspring thickness.

 

And it's fine to use a smaller winder handle with a larger barrel, as long as the cap covers the barrel it works. Quite often the given winder handle is too large for the spring center.

Interesting. Not sure if i want to risk 230 bucks on the set not knowing exactly what it is. The seller doesnt' even really know what it is. 
If somebody else wants to give it a shot it could be interesting to for the community fo find a good vintage brand of winder that's out floating around.

The retaining ring is a brilliant idea though!

[valleyguy]

Is the set left or right handed, i've looked at the photos and i can''t tell, will new bergeon arbors work with favorite winders you could get a set of new arbours then you have the option of both left and right, if i knew they were compatable i may be tempted to have a bid.

[MechanicMike]

15 hours ago, Birbdad said:

hate a lot of things bergeon does. THey make so many tools that could just as easily be a 5 dollar screwdriver head replacement.

yup. supply and demand, and because people WILL pay to buy it.