All kinds of new to this - an introduction

[JayPoorJay]

Hey All.

My name is Jason, and credit where credit is due - the reason I am here (WHO I BLAME, lol) is a guy named Marshall, on YouTube. I was skimming around on YouTube, saw hime working and was captivated. Watch many many of his videos, then found others - and here I am.

I already have a first project I'm in the middle of - but I'll write about that in a bit.

I work on old Jaguar's and a 928 Porsche. My Lady laughs at me for this transition. I already have some basic tools, a timegrapher (weishi 1000) and yes 6 watches that need work. More about those to come, I am sure. 

Anywho. It is great to be here. I am super grateful for the folks who come here and share their hard worked for wisdom, experience, know how, advise and suggestions. The forum world and all the folks who participate and give - I have no words. It's how I am able to think for one second that I can do this EXACTLY how it was when I started on the cars and motorcycles. I look forward to being here for years and I will head over now to post my first questions.

Again, thank you all so so much

Jason

[Nucejoe]

Hello Jason, welcome to the forum.

[JayPoorJay]

Thank you, Joe. Good morning.

Quick question about the forum. I'm working on an old Waltham pocket watch as a first go. I need some parts, and advise. Where is the best area of the forum to make my first post on the matter? I don't want to start out by annoying folks, if ya know what I mean,,,?

[watchweasol]

Hello Jason and welcome to the forum,  don’t worry about annoying folks. The whole point of the forum is sharing knowledge. If you don’t know ask, no matter how trivial you think it is.  Regarding Waltham, checkout daveswatchparts.com a knowledgable guy and helpful, located in the States. JohnR725 is the vintage watch guy on here and knows his stuff.

[JohnR725]

12 hours ago, JayPoorJay said:

I already have some basic tools, a timegrapher (weishi 1000)

Interesting basic tool usually we have to twist arms to get somebody to purchase one of these.

25 minutes ago, JayPoorJay said:

old Waltham pocket watch as a first go

Interesting choice for a first watch. Nobody's going to mind if you post a picture of the movement on this discussion just for information sake

26 minutes ago, JayPoorJay said:

Where is the best area of the forum to make my first post on the matter?

Yes that can be quite a mystery now that we have sections for everything. If you're looking for parts I think there's a part section and yes there is a place for everything way too many places if you ask me but nobody's asking me. So for now when it's just post a picture of your watch here just because we like seeing pictures of watches. It also be nice if he gave us the movement serial number.

 

[JayPoorJay]

30 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Interesting basic tool usually we have to twist arms to get somebody to purchase one of these.

Interesting choice for a first watch. Nobody's going to mind if you post a picture of the movement on this discussion just for information sake

Yes that can be quite a mystery now that we have sections for everything. If you're looking for parts I think there's a part section and yes there is a place for everything way too many places if you ask me but nobody's asking me. So for now when it's just post a picture of your watch here just because we like seeing pictures of watches. It also be nice if he gave us the movement serial number.

 

Good Morning to you both, and thank you.

Ok, I'll post a picture of the movement and interestingly I wrote Dave an email this morning... For some reason, when I'm googling the watch and using ebay to look for the wheel, lots of Waltham watches and parts show up, but they are a very different style of movement. Maybe the seller mis named the watch? 

And, thank you for the reassurance. When I began posting to the 928 Porsche forum for instance, the folks there were pretty rough, and the tone made the experience unpleasant enough that I rarely return. Anywho... This is what I am looking at. Lol, I think she is beaUtiful, hahaha 

 

Actually... First mistake.

I was supposed to start a new thread! Perhaps I'll get on the path here, a bit, then start the thread anew,,,?

 

[JohnR725]

5 minutes ago, JayPoorJay said:

Maybe the seller mis named the watch

What did the seller call the watch?

7 minutes ago, JayPoorJay said:

When I began posting to the 928 Porsche forum for instance, the folks there were pretty rough, and the tone made the experience unpleasant enough that I rarely return.

I find this amusing not amusing your bad experience but amusing were somebody else who joined our group complained about how bad watchmakers are and how friendly the  automotive groups are. I guess it probably depends on what question you ask perhaps

now the problem you going to have with American pocket watches are in a pocket watch for that matter is there are typically made in batches. So even if you get the exact same watch things may or may not fit even if the parts book says they will fit. So feel the watch that was made over years of time early stuff for definitely different than later generations even though the parts book will indicate that are all identical.

Here's a link to a place for you to look up the serial number and get descriptions

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/waltham/12753133

Then you'll notice on the left-hand side it says parts unfortunately typically for Waltham you don't get a parts listing.

Oh this will get you started into the nightmare of finding parts

https://archive.org/details/CatalogueOfWalthamWatchMaterial/mode/2up

Fortunately it's a 12 size and they made a lot of them so there should be parts of movements on eBay it just depends upon which parts you want

[JayPoorJay]

eBay listing was - "Vintage 18 Size 7 Jewel Waltham Pocketwatch - Runs - VT340"

Notice it says "runs" - it did not run.

This was the description. For some reason I think it might be inaccurate. It's described as an 18, and you see that its a 12!

Thank you for the help already! For old Jag's and the 928, scouring the world for parts is part of the fun - lots learned there. I don't even know how to begin with watch parts really. We shall see.

I have 1000 areas of curve, on this learning curve - so I better buckle in and take it slow.

I hope (but might understand) watch makers are not tougher than the Porsche 928 guys. I'm pretty think skinned, so I'll survive I think.

[LittleWatchShop]

Where to post.

Walthams ate fun...lol

 

[JayPoorJay]

Are Waltham pocket watches really that bad to work on and find parts for?

I enjoy beating myself up, I guess. Not knowing what I was looking at when I was buying, I am now the proud owner of 3 Elgin (I think they are) 580 watches. Again, I'm not sure how to name everything. Smallest movements,,, I've already lost parts - go the second two (from one seller) for spare parts. Crazy

I also broke the crystal on my Citizen Eco Drive Calibre 2100 - now can't find the crystal gasket/seal or so I feel certain about ordering the glass - 38.8mm.

I feel a bit out of control.

[LittleWatchShop]

19 minutes ago, JayPoorJay said:

Are Waltham pocket watches really that bad to work on and find parts for?

I enjoy beating myself up, I guess. Not knowing what I was looking at when I was buying, I am now the proud owner of 3 Elgin (I think they are) 580 watches. Again, I'm not sure how to name everything. Smallest movements,,, I've already lost parts - go the second two (from one seller) for spare parts. Crazy

I also broke the crystal on my Citizen Eco Drive Calibre 2100 - now can't find the crystal gasket/seal or so I feel certain about ordering the glass - 38.8mm.

I feel a bit out of control.

Well, I don't have the experience @JohnR725has, so he should weigh in on this.  I have worked on a few pocket watches and a few of their A-11/17 6/0 wristwatches.  There is a tricky mainspring barrel on some Waltham PWs...I have had trouble with them.  There are plenty of donors on ebay, so you should be able to find most parts.

[JayPoorJay]

4 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

What did the seller call the watch?

I find this amusing not amusing your bad experience but amusing were somebody else who joined our group complained about how bad watchmakers are and how friendly the  automotive groups are. I guess it probably depends on what question you ask perhaps

now the problem you going to have with American pocket watches are in a pocket watch for that matter is there are typically made in batches. So even if you get the exact same watch things may or may not fit even if the parts book says they will fit. So feel the watch that was made over years of time early stuff for definitely different than later generations even though the parts book will indicate that are all identical.

Here's a link to a place for you to look up the serial number and get descriptions

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/waltham/12753133

Then you'll notice on the left-hand side it says parts unfortunately typically for Waltham you don't get a parts listing.

Oh this will get you started into the nightmare of finding parts

https://archive.org/details/CatalogueOfWalthamWatchMaterial/mode/2up

Fortunately it's a 12 size and they made a lot of them so there should be parts of movements on eBay it just depends upon which parts you want

 

Ok. I've looked a bit close at this (as much as I can while at work) and WOW, @JohnR725 There is a lot of info here... More than I thought at first glance.

So help me understand. It's a 12 size watch and not 18 as the seller said. And, if I use that Google book (tough on the phone) I should be able to find an individual part number for the escape wheel? And, is the number on my watch the overall model number of all of the watches OR, is a number unique to mine that falls in a broader run number idea. As in, mine is number xxxxxxxxx of xxxxxxxxx produced?

[grsnovi]

3 hours ago, JayPoorJay said:

Are Waltham pocket watches really that bad to work on and find parts for?

Waltham and Elgins were made by the thousands in the early 20th century. They represent the beginnings of American "mass production". The problem is that while a given watch movement may have 250,000 pieces made over time they really are not identical. You can't assume that just because you have an example produced in 1910 and another of the same model produced in 1925 that you can swap parts.

That said usually the easiest way to get parts is to purchase an entire second movement.

Pocket watches make good first watch candidates because they're relatively large.

Scans from one of my books...

...based on data from the next page, that model used 11 different escape wheels over the course of its production: some gilted/some steel, some with 13T others with 15T, some with straight pivots others with conical pivots. So, even with a relatively informative book you still will have detective work.

 

Edited February 7, 2023 by grsnovi
added scan from part number data columns

[JayPoorJay]

Thank you @grsnovi... Thank you. Quick question. With the diagram in your post,,, how would I be able to tell which is the escape wheel? They all look so much alike.

With the 210, 7jewel and 12s info I went and looked around for another movement for repair on eBay, found one and purchased it for 16bucks... We'll see if the parts that come out of IT,,, match my needs.

Yeah, due to the size (and all my tools being magnetized) I'm afraid to even touch the Elgin 580 watches. I need a demagnetizer. And a bunch of other things.

I want plating set up. And to learn how to order crystals or resin/epoxy - glass for watches and and and.

I love the tool aspect of all of this. Slowly but surely.

[grsnovi]

Hi Jay, well looking at the numbers in the listing for the escape wheels you'll notice there are numbers 1818 and 1820. So, those would be the escape wheels in the pictorial. Which (in my opinion) is a lousy way to show the escape wheel since looking at the wheel where you'd see the wheel as a circle would immediately show you the characteristic look of an escape wheel.

Have you taken any of Mark's online classes? You might consider his level 2 class. They become more economical if you do more than 1. Depends on where you think you're going with all of this. I took/paid for Mark's first 3 courses but there is a lot of great stuff out there for free.

Have you seen this web page? It is a very good set of animations that describe the mechanics of a watch. You might also benefit from watching this guy's YouTube series. Start with #1 and go from there (these are free).

I've never worked on a Waltham but I've tangled with a few Elgins.

Good luck!

- Gary

[JohnR725]

7 hours ago, JayPoorJay said:

Bay listing was - "Vintage 18 Size 7 Jewel Waltham Pocketwatch - Runs - VT340"

Notice it says "runs" - it did not run.

This was the description. For some reason I think it might be inaccurate. It's described as an 18, and you see that its a 12!

The pocket watch database isn't 100% perfect it does have mistakes but not this time. Your watch is definitely not an 18 size watch it does visually look like a 12 size watch.

Then yes on eBay to definition of running isn't the same as yours and mine running means that if the balance wheel is shaken and it moves for more than about two seconds it's now running if the second hand moved one notch it's running that's a running watch they just didn't specify how long it runs more it's a little clerical mistake it just to innocent little mistake of. If you look on the discussion group somebody else is having a discussion about a problem with the eBay seller.

Then usually on eBay but not always it's the picture not the description in the text that determines the item you get. Although your particular seller if I guessed correctly as super minimalistic description. But his picture looks like the watch that you have and that's definitely not 18 size

https://www.ebay.com/itm/354542132117

 

 

6 hours ago, JayPoorJay said:

Are Waltham pocket watches really that bad to work on and find parts for?

IIt's not so much Waltham it's all vintage watches. For instance if you look at your Waltham watch notice the serial number isn't just on the main plate it's on every single plate components. All the bridges will have a partial that serial number. Even the balance wheel usually is the serial number scribed on it. That's because all those components have to go together as soon as you a mix-and-match bridge components on American pocket watch you will have a nightmare. The escapement's were all adjusted for each watch. So mixing and matching parts can definitely be an issue not impossible but definitely an issue

3 hours ago, grsnovi said:

Pocket watches make good first watch candidates because they're relatively large.

Yes we typically recommend pocket watches but we don't typically are least I do not recommend vintage pocket watches. I think it be nice for somebody to work on in my typical recommendation is a 6497 or 6498 Chinese clone of these. That's because the Swiss versions tend to be really expensive than the Chinese clones are less than $50. They give you something to take apart and put back together and they were running in the first place which is very important. Because when you reassemble them they should still be running if not you can blame the dog the cat your wife the kids are somebody else I'm sure it would be your fault that something got broken. Where is if you start with a broken watch you don't know if the problem was the original watch or whether you somehow did something. It also allows you to see a running watch see how things work.

Then from the description it says running watch and you've decided it needs components why exactly?

3 hours ago, JayPoorJay said:

individual part number for the escape wheel?

For instance why do you think you need an escape wheel?

 

[JayPoorJay]

John! Thank you for the amazing response.

After I disassembled the thing I noticed the lower shaft/axle on the escapement was broken off. 

I've read and will reread your last post. Lots of good lessons in there. And lots to think about when considering what I do next. I will be very happy (and will pay$$) when I get these 4 first watches I have running. If I spend a little money, the lessons I learn in the process, so early on in the process, will be worth it. 

And next time (there will be a next time) I will start my thread in the correct area, lol 

As it is now in particularly, I am not as clear, focused or centered, so, my responses to all of these amazing lessons you all are giving as WELL as the information I am providing is a bit messy, and I apologize.

I've recently started a new job with a bunch of moving parts, bought a big ol house that is as old as the pocket watch, lol, and started living with my fiancee for the first time (don't ask, lol)... I guess because I'm such a glutton for punishment,,, I thought that getting on a new learning curve, taking apart and finding parts for a lightly neglected 100+ year old watch made sense right now, lol. I need to have my head examined, ha! 

I'll get there.

John, and all, thank you!

[grsnovi]

Well, the good news is that you ought to be able to check any new escape wheel against the damaged one for tooth count, pivots, etc...

[JayPoorJay]

14 hours ago, grsnovi said:

Well, the good news is that you ought to be able to check any new escape wheel against the damaged one for tooth count, pivots, etc...

And I will... Haha, I'm not feeling so confident. I have one wheel coming from Dave (thanks for the direction) and one that hopefully will come with a donor movement found on ebay for just 12bucks. I am pleased no matter what happens. 

I have a long way to go, on many many MANY levels. Day at a time!

Thank you guys. I'll be back, no doubt...