Waltham Crescent Street: How to disassemble the mainspring barrel???

[LittleWatchShop]

I saw a short thread on this forum where it was stated that some of these unscrew.  I don't see it on this one.  How would you go about unscrewing it anyway?

 

[HectorLooi]

I've seen similar barrels in Russian movements. They are the usual friction fitted caps but on the reverse side.

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

friction fitted

I like the sound of friction have you tried whacking it with a big hammer?

It would've been nice to have a side view picture as something doesn't quite look right?

6 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

unscrew

Waltham mainspring barrels I really despise. They come apart a variety of ways unscrewing is a pain. Putting it back together is also a pain sometimes helps the whole part of it in a watchmaker's lathe.

Okay I'm trying to find you a picture. If I'm guessing right temporarily take the ratchet wheel and put it on top of the barrel arbor and then you can unscrew the arbor it screws together. I'm trying to find an image does I know I had images of all this in the past just where did they go to? Then yes we have discussed it on the group somewhere before

Okay founded I ask you have three images. One of the images talks about what I said putting the ratchet wheel back on using that to unscrew. But just in case of the give you all three images.

Oh and as a reminder you have issues with putting the mainspring back in and unless you get a real Waltham mainspring or modify the end and I will let you be surprised on that one when you get there.

[LittleWatchShop]

8 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Waltham mainspring barrels I really despise.

I think you nailed it...as usual.  I have already assembled the watch, but the barrel can be removed while leaving train wheels intact.  The watch is not running well, and I suspect a weak spring...so will probably have to dive back in.

I also despise Waltham hairspring studs!!

Edited January 3, 2023 by LittleWatchShop

[LittleWatchShop]

What a pain in the @ss.  I can get to unscrew maybe 1/4 turn and then it freezes up.  I wonder if dropping some Kroil or some other penetrating oil in the rachet screw hole might help.

 

[LittleWatchShop]

Got it mounted on a step chuck for some grip.  Still resisting.

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

I wonder if dropping some Kroil or some other penetrating oil in the rachet screw hole might help.

Certainly worth a try and then the other thing to remember is. So you to hold on the one end with the ratchet wheel the other end is just friction fit in the bottom of the barrel assembly. Usually it's a square shape that goes into a square hole so if you unscrew it enough it's going to pop out of the barrel and then it will just turn. You have to make sure that it stays in the bottom of the barrel so that you can unscrew it

yes the creativity of Waltham is quite unpleasant for watchmakers.

[LittleWatchShop]

3 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Certainly worth a try and then the other thing to remember is. So you to hold on the one end with the ratchet wheel the other end is just friction fit in the bottom of the barrel assembly. Usually it's a square shape that goes into a square hole so if you unscrew it enough it's going to pop out of the barrel and then it will just turn. You have to make sure that it stays in the bottom of the barrel so that you can unscrew it

yes the creativity of Waltham is quite unpleasant for watchmakers.

Yes, you are correct.  I have to keep the bottom engaged.  It does not appear to be square though.  Looks like three fee that mesh into the bottom of the barrel.  Bottom line...gotta keep pulling outward as I unscrew.  I bet this had never been opened.  I can see the watch has been serviced multiple times.  Each watchmaker probably said: "screw this!" and moved on.  Dunno.  What a stupid design.

[LittleWatchShop]

Good news...and bad news.

As best I can tell, the thread pitch on that screw is 148.

CORRECTION:  I believe it is 120.

Edited January 4, 2023 by LittleWatchShop

[markr]

Just put a dial dot on it.

[LittleWatchShop]

I have this Riverside 16s display (used to hang in my Dad's shop).  I recently disassembled it and re-placed all of the pieces that had fallen (unglued) from the mat.

After going through this Waltham MS barrel issue, I went back to look at it and I see the same configuration I have been dealing with.  I could rob the screw from the display, but I dont want to do that.

 

 

[dadistic]

That is one heckuva neat display.

Sorry to hear about the screw, now things get fun

 

[rehajm]

On 1/4/2023 at 10:17 AM, LittleWatchShop said:

I have this Riverside 16s display (used to hang in my Dad's shop).  I recently disassembled it and re-placed all of the pieces that had fallen (unglued) from the mat.

After going through this Waltham MS barrel issue, I went back to look at it and I see the same configuration I have been dealing with.  I could rob the screw from the display, but I dont want to do that.

 

 

OMG that's so funny. I would've nicked it before I had a chance to consider if I should..

Edited January 5, 2023 by rehajm

[LittleWatchShop]

1 hour ago, rehajm said:

OMG that's so funny. I would've nicked it before I had a chance to consider if I should..

Well...it could still happen!

[LittleWatchShop]

Saga continues.  I ordered a bag of random American watch screws from CasKer and they arrived yesterday.  Hope against hope, I sorted through them.  Actually found several with the correct threads and diameter.  That was encouraging.  HOWEVER, this Waltham ratchet wheel screw has a very large head...which is necessary.  That is gonna be hard to source.

On 1/5/2023 at 2:26 PM, LittleWatchShop said:

Well...it could still happen!

Noooooooo!!!  Damn Waltham.  The display did not use a screw.  It used an non-threaded post with a screw head.

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

Damn Waltham

That's usually what I think every time I deal with the Waltham and a mainspring. If it's not trying to figure out how to get into the barrel safely it's trying to get the mainspring to stay where it's supposed to be. Those thin steel shells have to have the mainspring End specifically shaped or they won't catch. So if you're using a modern spring you have to reshape them or they won't catch.

 

[LittleWatchShop]

I determined that  Swiss screw plate MF-L 8 gets me close enough.  I made a screw, but it is not perfect, so I will have to slap myself repeadedly to keep from making another--ostensibly better.

[LittleWatchShop]

I ordered a new MS from CasKer and it arrived yesterday.  I popped it in but the end would never lock on the barrel, so I removed it.  Wow, this thing is spring like an automatic wind MS...never seen that before.

After three attempts and tweaking the end and HAND WINDING, I got it right on the fourth.

I hate Waltham...am I being redundant?

[LittleWatchShop]

It is back together with a new MS and a replacement screw which I made.  Amplitude went way up but it is still running slow.  Beat error virtually zero.  I will let it run awhile and see what happens.

I made some adjustment of the timing screws and got it running faster.  Will continue to look for issues that I may have missed.

Edited January 11, 2023 by LittleWatchShop

[JohnR725]

6 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

I ordered a new MS from CasKer and it arrived yesterday.  I popped it in but the end would never lock on the barrel, so I removed it.  Wow, this thing is spring like an automatic wind MS...never seen that before.

After three attempts and tweaking the end and HAND WINDING, I got it right on the fourth.

I hate Waltham...am I being redundant?

 

On 1/10/2023 at 11:56 AM, JohnR725 said:

If it's not trying to figure out how to get into the barrel safely it's trying to get the mainspring to stay where it's supposed to be. Those thin steel shells have to have the mainspring End specifically shaped or they won't catch. So if you're using a modern spring you have to reshape them or they won't catch.

I believe I already mentioned the problem if you look at an original wall from the spring the end is a little different than a normal everything else in the universe. Somewhere in the group I have pictures of all of this. So basically the Waltham end has to have a tapered part filed so it wedges itself into the protruding part of the steel barrel and it has to have a little bend otherwise as you found it will never catch by itself and even if it does it will not stay in place sometimes without the tapering.

So yes the problem with the modern Springs are just stamped and the original ones had some machining. I have a second Waltham mainspring on order hopefully will come in some time for a comeback watch where the hole size was too small so I had the hole size expanded. The benefits of where I work is they have a very expensive fiber laser and it works really nice for cutting holes square holes. But the boss likes to show off and the square hole broke and now that met my end of the spring stuck up into the other part shaved off metal and the whole watch came to a stop as a comeback. Yes I can understand the redundant part about hating Waltham's

oh the other thing you want to do is check your lift angle I don't have my pocket watch lift angle charge in front of me. But they can vary in that may be one of the reasons you have an amplitude issue in addition to of course the pivots being bad because they do go back with time and need to be polished.

 

[LittleWatchShop]

4 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

it wedges itself into the protruding part of the steel barrel

I did reshape it a little, but did not do any tapering as you suggest.  Using a screwdriver, I bent the cat out slightly.  I think it is gonna catch.  Since it is my watch, I will let it be for now.  If I have to go back in...I will taper it as you suggest.

I hate the Waltham style hairspring stud too. 

[LittleWatchShop]

Seeing the significant improvement in amplitude after the new mainspring tells me that old mainsprings grow weaker over time...especially old pocket watch ones. Maybe I should routinely change them when servicing old pocket watches. No?????

[JohnR725]

24 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

Seeing the significant improvement in amplitude after the new mainspring tells me that old mainsprings grow weaker over time...especially old pocket watch ones. Maybe I should routinely change them when servicing old pocket watches. No?????

If you're in a modern shop with modern watchmakers like the ones I used to work with they won't even touch a watch without a brand-new mainspring in their hand. When I'm servicing pocket watches if it's a blued spring it always gets replaced because they are set. They will let you do pre-timing and adjust things but they're not going to run well over 24 hours. But on the other hand if it's a modern white spring and it still has some back curve to it then yes all use those again.

If you doing watches at home for yourself and having fun unless you want to carry the watch every day I just wouldn't worry about it as the cost of mainsprings can add up fast.

Then thinking about changing the mainspring is even Omega has a working instruction on recycling mainspring barrels. Where they open up the barrel when they checked the spraying and make sure it's smooth and no kinks then they clean up the barrel but make sure there's nothing it's Warner not perfect clean the whole thing up free lubricate and put the old mainspring back in. Which is quite amusing because in their service center they change I think they change the entire barrel because there a service center and they haven't infinite supply of those

[LittleWatchShop]

Update on this watch.  It has been running on the bench since January.  I have been making small adjustments to see how well I can get it to run.  Here are my measurements this morning at about 50% power.

Pos Rate  Amplitude

DU +7  274
DD -1   281
PD +9  221
PU +14 218
PR +9   226
PL +2   216

Not RR time, as I understand is on the order of 30 sec/week and who knows about temperature variance.

I bought this at an antique store on Lockhart TX  for $100.  It is a beautiful movement

[JohnR725]

7 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

Not RR time, as I understand is on the order of 30 sec/week and who knows about temperature variance.

The definition a railroad timekeeping is interesting. Like if you just try to find what is the actual standard for railroad timekeeping it's hard to nail down because of various companies have different standards. Then addition to the timekeeping standards the companies also had what do they consider a railroad watch at least in the pocket watch days. Somewhere I think as specifications for some other railroads but the timekeeping stuff is always interesting. Because it's not based on timing machine results is based on what the watch does over time.

Sometimes the PDF below is used as railroads specifications except. This is the be version of two watches in other words is a solid balance wheel it's not a split balance wheel so basically this would be a watch in the absolute peak of performance which on vintage or split rim balance wheels I think would be hard to achieve this.

Plus if you look at Rolex timekeeping I think even Rolex timekeeping might actually exceed this I have to find the Rolex specifications because a lot of Rolex stuff is based on averages over time which this may actually be it's the wording on never quite sure hundred percent what they mean.

But still I would be really happy if all my watches look like that coming off the bench.

 

Hamilton 992b 950 timing.PDF