Repair Rubbed-in Jewel with Shellac?

[cortman]

Hi all,

I've so appreciated the help and advice I've gotten on my questions so far. I have run into another new problem on an Elgin 18s Grade 326 model 5 pocket watch. This is the one with the little "tower" on the top plate with a hole in the side the pallet fork enters to interact with the balance.

The bottom balance jewel, located on the bottom of the "tower" has come loose from its rubbed-in setting. I noticed when I oiled it that it was loose, and upon examination I found that the rubbed-in lip was flaking off in several places, so much so that with a little prodding just to see how loose it was it came right out. The jewel itself is in excellent condition with no damage.

I am woefully under-equipped to try to rub in a new jewel, and I suspect similarly so for boring out and replacing the jewel with a friction fit version. Would it be possible to simply fix the jewel into the setting with a bit of shellac around the outer edges? Since shellac is used to hold other high stress jewels in place (roller jewel, pallet fork) it would seem to have capable properties for this, but I haven't found much online about doing it.

Thanks!

[Nucejoe]

 I buy big watch Lots ( scrap or in need of repair) , so actually have living evidences to learn from of mistakes made by previous watch destroyers attempts to glue or shellac jewels& end stones in place.

Even if it does work, it just isn't proper watch repair practice. 

Rgds

 

[cortman]

3 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

 I buy big watch Lots ( scrap or in need of repair) , so actually have living evidences to learn from of mistakes made by previous watch destroyers attempts to glue or shellac jewels& end stones in place.

Even if it does work, it just isn't proper watch repair practice. 

Rgds

 

Thank you for the advice. I would love to have a couple grand to drop on a Seitz tool and setting reamers but that really just isn't the case right now. I guess I'll either see if my client is ok with waiting or try the shellac method.

[JohnR725]

6 hours ago, cortman said:

couple grand to drop on a Seitz tool and setting reamers

It would be nice yes if we can all afford new tools but keep an eye open on eBay they come up used as long as you don't have the have the full big superset which you don't then they don't cost thousands of dollars.

12 hours ago, cortman said:

Elgin 18s Grade 326

You can go to the website below enter in your grade number and we can look up what Julian need. Then it's in a setting and you can push it out of where it is now as you replace the entire setting. You can also look up a cross reference of all the watches that should have the same jewel although you will have to measure the balance pivot size to make sure you get the right pivot size.

Then once you have a part number you look online and find  people selling the jewel. First one the whole sizes rather large and the third link they do give you a choice. Remember the whole needs to be a little bit bigger than the actual pivot.

http://www.elginwatchparts.com/

https://www.ebay.com/itm/374363322134

https://www.ofrei.com/page2073.html

 

 

[cortman]

On 12/27/2022 at 11:11 PM, JohnR725 said:

It would be nice yes if we can all afford new tools but keep an eye open on eBay they come up used as long as you don't have the have the full big superset which you don't then they don't cost thousands of dollars.

You can go to the website below enter in your grade number and we can look up what Julian need. Then it's in a setting and you can push it out of where it is now as you replace the entire setting. You can also look up a cross reference of all the watches that should have the same jewel although you will have to measure the balance pivot size to make sure you get the right pivot size.

Then once you have a part number you look online and find  people selling the jewel. First one the whole sizes rather large and the third link they do give you a choice. Remember the whole needs to be a little bit bigger than the actual pivot.

http://www.elginwatchparts.com/

https://www.ebay.com/itm/374363322134

https://www.ofrei.com/page2073.html

 

 

Thank you very much for those insights. I measured the pivot as best I could with my cheap calipers and settled on a .15 hole size. I ordered replacement jewels and will report back how it turns out. Thanks again!

[mbwatch]

On 12/30/2022 at 10:39 AM, cortman said:

I ordered replacement jewels and will report back how it turns out.

I know it's only been a few weeks, but were you able to complete this repair? I am always interested in seeing how first-timers accomplish these types of repairs as I am preparing to attempt some similar ones.

[cortman]

On 1/22/2023 at 5:17 PM, mbwatch said:

I know it's only been a few weeks, but were you able to complete this repair? I am always interested in seeing how first-timers accomplish these types of repairs as I am preparing to attempt some similar ones.

The replacement jewel I ordered on eBay did not fit the diameter of the opening. It could move side to side easily even with the cap jewel installed. I'll probably be trying to return it.

After researching a bit more, I found that the top and bottom balance jewels are the same for this watch- which let me use a set from my parts movement. The jewels look correct, but when I tighten down the balance bridge now the balance wheel stops. So I need to adjust the depth somehow it appears.

[54chevy]

Curious if this got solved.  A little bit of watchmakers paper under the balance cock will give you the height needed to free up the balance staff in the jewels 

[Neverenoughwatches]

9 minutes ago, 54chevy said:

Curious if this got solved.  A little bit of watchmakers paper under the balance cock will give you the height needed to free up the balance staff in the jewels 

Tin foil is a good option comes in different thicknesses,  paper can attract and absorb moisture being hygroscopic.

[JohnR725]

6 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

paper can attract and absorb moisture being hygroscopic.

Oh dear, traditionally watch repair they recommend a thin slice of paper in particular watchmakers paper which is a thin tissue paper at least that's what you typically find. Then a course you have the next peculiar dilemma typically people using the end pieces of paper will put it either in front of the screw or behind the screw to tip the balance bridge as we had a discussion somewhere else versus using a thin sheet of foil across the entire bottom and raising the bridge up nice and parallel providing the bridge wasn't bent in the first place which generated the problem requiring the shim.

[Neverenoughwatches]

16 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Oh dear, traditionally watch repair they recommend a thin slice of paper in particular watchmakers paper which is a thin tissue paper at least that's what you typically find. Then a course you have the next peculiar dilemma typically people using the end pieces of paper will put it either in front of the screw or behind the screw to tip the balance bridge as we had a discussion somewhere else versus using a thin sheet of foil across the entire bottom and raising the bridge up nice and parallel providing the bridge wasn't bent in the first place which generated the problem requiring the shim.

Was that a diplomatic way of avoiding expressing your view of using paper in a watch . As we know paper is mostly made from wood pulp and wood loves moisture. My office at home used to be in a single skin brickwork outbuilding that was only heated adequately when i was in there  catching up on dreaded paperwork maybe once a week. It could get pretty cold in there with only background heat keeping it at 10 ° in winter, it was dryish though. Lots of stationary in there, paper, paperclip , staples etc. Only the staples that were holding paperwork together rusted

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Was that a diplomatic way of avoiding expressing your view of using paper in a watch

Actually typically I never use paper I prefer to bend the balance bridge. But as per some discussion somewhere in the universe apparently bending the balance bridge causes people to become unhappy but it does solve a problem and it works fine.

Then it does bring up a problem of a thin sliver of watch tissue paper under the balance bridge will be protected by metal on both sides with possibly only the ends exposed to a miniscule amount of air. Then depending upon the type of watch sealed to varying degrees so the amount of moisture getting into watch to screw up the paper should be almost nonexistent much more likely to start rusting the watch up

: real life could be better just to deal with the balance staff like you're supposed to do and not have little slivers of paper or foil or people gathered Jing the plates the raise up spots of metal none that should exist the balance staff should be the right length.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

Actually typically I never use paper I prefer to bend the balance bridge. But as per some discussion somewhere in the universe apparently bending the balance bridge causes people to become unhappy but it does solve a problem and it works fine.

Then it does bring up a problem of a thin sliver of watch tissue paper under the balance bridge will be protected by metal on both sides with possibly only the ends exposed to a miniscule amount of air. Then depending upon the type of watch sealed to varying degrees so the amount of moisture getting into watch to screw up the paper should be almost nonexistent much more likely to start rusting the watch up

: real life could be better just to deal with the balance staff like you're supposed to do and not have little slivers of paper or foil or people gathered Jing the plates the raise up spots of metal none that should exist the balance staff should be the right length.

As with many things in life people take short cuts just to get the job done. Marvellous explanation btw that covered many different ways to skin a cat. Personally I'm a dog man, but i still wouldnt harm a . 

[Nucejoe]

5 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Actually typically I never use paper I prefer to bend the balance bridge. But as per some discussion somewhere in the universe apparently bending the balance bridge causes people to become unhappy but it does solve a problem and it works fine.

 So the next watch destroyer has to figure out why his new balance complete feels unhappy in this new geometry of a movement you created. 

Frankens are always created by others , not us , nooo wasn't me 

Rgds

[JohnR725]

6 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

So the next watch destroyer has to figure out why his new balance complete feels unhappy in this new geometry of a movement you created. 

Frankens are always created by others , not us , nooo wasn't me

Out of curiosity  since the watches I typically work on our vintage American pocket watches  where exactly are you going to get a new balance complete?  Then straightening up a balance bridge that's already been modified by others  are you suggesting I should not fix a problem?

 

 

[Nucejoe]

21 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

 straightening up a balance bridge that's already been modified by others  are you suggesting I should not fix a problem?

No doubt you correct frankens. 

Rgds