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Open-Source cleaning machine for newcomers (like me) ??


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Hi folks. I'm new to the forum. I'll post a link to my intro forum once the mods give me the official "okeedokee".

Since I'm pretty new to watchmaking but not new to making stuff, I have naturally drifted my thinking toward a DIY project, namely a cleaning machine. I have seen a couple DIY attempts and starts, which are commendable. This got me thinking about an approach which might make a lot of sense, even financially, so that newcomers and maybe even old hands (like a backup machine or whatever) could whip one together for relatively cheap.

The approach I speak of is to have interested parties contribute on an Open Source watch cleaning machine project. I'm not sure how these things are typically organized online, but even a forum thread could be the home base if nothing else.

Designing and iterating a one-off machine like this is probably not efficient in both time and $$ compared to finding a used one for sale. But if a proven design existed and folks just needed to find, download and make it, then it probably would be worth it.

One thing I already did on my own is to pick up a really cheap gear-reduction DC motor, controller and power supply which I have connected up and wrote some code to control it with a microcontroller. The code is just started but I have it oscillating smoothly (reversing back & forth with ramping acceleration). I'll have it working with switches/buttons and have RPM control soon. What I've learned so far is 200rpm (the motor I bought) is not correct like I thought it would be, but rather is too slow (without pulley ratios or something). But it's a start. Parts cost so far: power supply $11, motor $15, microcontroller $3, motor driver $14, total = $33 but could be reduced to maybe half that with better research.

Lots of people have 3D printers these days so I figured a lot of the parts could be made that way. The difficult part of 3D printing is modeling the parts, so if files could be made available for download, then that would help folks a ton. You can also make tools to make other parts as well - what I'm thinking is some 2-part dies to shape mesh screen into the desired cup shapes for the parts baskets. Other stuff as well I'm sure.

One of the DIY projects I saw was 3D printed parts for the parts cage. The guy said he tested PLA in the solution and it appeared to resist reacting with whatever he had anyway. There are other plastics to choose from too of course, so the "best" one can be determined over time.

Anyways, my pipe dream is that there could eventually be a github or something that contained all the pertinent files, parts list & sources and instructions for a newcomer to download and use to whip one of these up. If this existed, I would think a lot of new folks would benefit. Even some experienced watchmakers might benefit from having one too.

Let me know what your thoughts are.

So the next step is to maybe get started. Here's a short video showing the oscillating motor control:

 

Edited by Vinito
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  • 3 weeks later...

I am trying to build one of these my own using RPM controller connected a 775 motor, it should do the work. I read some spec of old watch cleaning machine that it has about 2000 RPM, so I believe that's enough, what bothers me is that how to put them together onto a platform.

someone started a kickstarter, all 3d printed, $85 for the documents and supports, but I'd rather design my own machine 🙂

* Admin note: Link removed - No links to kickstarters please 😉 *

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I pretty much just started tinkering with this. Tonight I have some time so I'm going to have a go at figuring out hardware interrupts. This will include adding switches for start/stop, toggling between constant spin and oscillating direction, and also need to add an RPM pot.

 Not sure how far I'll get.

Some work on hardware will come after. I have replaced the pictured 200rpm motor with an 800rpm one, which I suspect will be adequate. Honestly, 2000rpm seems excessive, but I don't know for sure. For one thing, you usually sacrifice low speed control consistency for high rpm unless you get fancy.

This stuff takes time and I wouldn't be surprised if it takes a few months before I have some kind of functional prototype model, at least with this day job thing constantly getting in the way. But my goal, whether with help or not, is to have a design which is both inexpensive and easy to build with reasonably common materials and maybe (probably) some 3D printed parts.

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Just FWIW, 200rpm is fine for spinning the basket in the liquid for washing. You want as much potential for liquid to flow over the parts as you can and spinning too fast sends liquid to the outer extremities of your jar where it doesn’t do much, apart from making foam. I’ve added expanded metal mesh placed inside jar outer circumference to break this up and “force” fluid back into the basket. 

In fact, just spinning the basket one way is pointless unless you have an impeller at the top of the basket forcing fluid through the inside of the basket. It’s for this reason many modern designs rapidly alternate the spin direction to create as much fluid “friction” over the parts (not sure if I’m making sense). Have a looking at how your typical clothes washing machine works for inspiration and note how it frequently alternates wash direction.

‘Where the high speed becomes important is when you lift the basket out of the fluid and need to spin off the excess as a spin cycle. I’m running around 800 rpm here. I also alternate the direction but the intervals are longer.

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On 1/11/2023 at 7:28 PM, Trey said:

I read some spec of old watch cleaning machine that it has about 2000 RPM, so I believe that's enough

Just because the machine can go to 2000 doesn't necessarily mean you want to go to 2000

I snipped out some images for you it tells the various RPMs recommended for cleaning watches.

 

 

 

 

Omega newer rpm's.JPG

Omega cleaning RPM.JPG

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@JohnR725thank you so much for the advice, really appreciate the document.

Aside from the rpm, what bothers me is that how do i stop the votex in the bottle. Saw a picture of L&R Watch Cleaning Machine Jar Baffle which is like star shape thingy in the bottle, is that doing the same thing as a metal mesh placed inside jar outer circumference? Thanks.

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11 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Just because the machine can go to 2000 doesn't necessarily mean you want to go to 2000

I snipped out some images for you it tells the various RPMs recommended for cleaning watches.

Great chart. First I've seen it. That stuff should be easier to find. I'm gonna try to shout it from the rooftops from now on.

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8 hours ago, Trey said:

@JohnR725thank you so much for the advice, really appreciate the document.

Aside from the rpm, what bothers me is that how do i stop the votex in the bottle. Saw a picture of L&R Watch Cleaning Machine Jar Baffle which is like star shape thingy in the bottle, is that doing the same thing as a metal mesh placed inside jar outer circumference? Thanks.

From my experience, two things prevent the vortex forming: alternating direction and wave breaking. Alternating direction is easy enough by whatever means. There are various means to do wavebreaking like mesh around jar circumference, plates glued to sides or placed in bottom of jar and having an impeller above the basket. You’ll have to experiment with what works on your setup

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10 hours ago, Trey said:

Aside from the rpm, what bothers me is that how do i stop the votex in the bottle. Saw a picture of L&R Watch Cleaning Machine Jar Baffle which is like star shape thingy in the bottle, is that doing the same thing as a metal mesh placed inside jar outer circumference?

By the way didn't bring up the square versus round jars? Yes and watchmakers aren't bickering over lubrication they might bicker over having a square jar causes some sort of flow a difference versus around jar. Then yes there is a mental thing that goes in the bottom of the jars and as quoted below there is also must remember how one of the machines did it I think it was in the way it held the baskets it has a propeller like effects what causes the fluid to not just spin but also pushes it down her upper something so there's more movement of the fluid because yes if you're spinning it at some point time conceivably the fluid will synchronize with speed of your spinning and not getting enough motion

17 hours ago, gbyleveldt said:

just spinning the basket one way is pointless unless you have an impeller at the top of the basket forcing fluid through the inside of the basket. It’s for this reason many modern designs rapidly alternate the spin direction to create as much fluid “friction” over the parts (not sure if I’m making sense

Oh and if you really want to do some cleaning what about this. This is a machine we use at work it comes at a bargain price of around $16,000 will let Sewall price and it's gone up a little. Everything is programmable were at least as a lot of programming is a rather sizable book that comes with it and I'm currently waiting for its 50,000 mile checkup what has to go back to do some place to have a whole bunch the valves and other stuff replaced. We've already done the 10,000 mile and no it's not based on mileage there's calendars in their. Like when you change the fluid and reset the counters ill keep track of the cleaning cycles and remind you that you should change the fluid and then I push the button I'm going to ignore you and that will remind me later in a push the button again and only when it starts looking like maybe it's not cleaning which is a very long time for us do we change the fluids. But think the 10,000 mile checkup was we had the change the carbon filters change the internal filters that filters the fluids and something else we changed but we already have all of those. So you want the ultimate of cleaning this is it because of you could add in the vacuum feature with ultrasonic the vacuum sucks out all the little bubbles and stuff and against the fluid in the places they normally wouldn't get so in the case of American pocket watches you do not have to take the jewels apart and typically they do clean perfectly

https://youtu.be/SCbFHf1BCdg

5 hours ago, Vinito said:

Great chart. First I've seen it. That stuff should be easier to find. I'm gonna try to shout it from the rooftops from now on.

Here's the problem with technical literature and why you've never seen this before it will never see the entire document. The watch companies have had supplemental information for a very long time for instance eta has technical communications that you can download off their website and sometimes they have the manufacturing information? Manufacturing information sheets I love those all the technical specs like the timing specs and other miscellaneous bits of interesting information but most people are unaware because they're seeking the service guide

Omega for instance the delay bought out a watchmaker so I ended up with physical documentation from the 50s early 60s they had a cleaning guide back then it also talked about epilam and lubrication. But if you look at their service guides they don't mention that up until modern times were they were refer you to working instruction number 40. So they still won't even talk about things because you need the supplemental information

so for instance where those images come from one of the Omega working instructions 27 I believe. Now what's the problem today with the technical literature for instance you go to the link below you use to build a search for the word working that now you have to specify much more the title you can even search for lubrication to find the link below which is really weird in case you look at the link there is working instruction number 40 hopefully on lubrication. Look at the corner of every single page notice it tells you exactly who download that's why you're not going to find in a modern literature on the web because somebody risks losing their parts a And nobody's going to risk that for discussion group. If you're lucky somebody might snip out something for you and airbrush out any corner marks that may be seen that's the best year ever going to get.

https://www.cousinsuk.com/document/search?SearchString=Rules+for+lubrication

 

 

 

 

 

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@JohnR725@gbyleveldt thank you guys again for the great help! here is some progress i have.

Adding a metal sheet around the square jar, star shape baffle in the bottom, and my fluid just enough to submerge my basket (including the basket cap/fan), it looks like the vortex is gone and waves go into the basket.

I don't have RPM meter so I couldn't be sure if it's the right speed but there's no bubble as I read from one of the threads that it shouldn't have. Is there any way I could verify the efficiency of cleaning watch parts? (even for the commercial watch cleaning machine, I couldn't find any metrics or documents indicate that)

Pardon me for keeping asking stupid questions.

S__46743563.thumb.jpg.879a52d0b1d78a3fea1f6d85e9e95b6c.jpg

 

Video

 

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7 hours ago, Trey said:

I don't have RPM meter so I couldn't be sure if it's the right speed but there's no bubble as I read from one of the threads that it shouldn't have.

Oh I was going to send you to a discussion but may be of seen it already somebody was having a problem with the fluid and it was foaming. I don't remember where I saw this but I thought I once read it said non-foaming but maybe it's just my imagination. But in the discussion somewhere recently foaming was a very bad thing.

7 hours ago, Trey said:

Is there any way I could verify the efficiency of cleaning watch parts? (even for the commercial watch cleaning machine, I couldn't find any metrics or documents indicate that)

Pardon me for keeping asking stupid questions.

More images attached and we have to take a leap of faith of something? Omega has a procedure and I snipped out the images.  if you go to the link below look in the oil section scroll down towards the bottom you will find what I perceive to be the test oils. No idea if we can purchase the oils and no idea what the discs are made out of.

Then if you read the technical description of the oils is a bit of late confusion? The reason why there is a confusion is the procedure that I snipped out is from much older  document where the newer ones are concerned about the epilam. In other words in the newer procedures they now epilam just about everything including the test discs and then they apply the oils to see if the epilam is effective. That's exactly what it says on the website at the link below. But in the older procedure did looking to see that everything is nice and clean and the oil spreads in a specific pattern. So yes there is a procedure that doesn't mean you get the following. But you might get some clues from this.

https://www.moebius-lubricants.ch/en

 

test oils for epilam and cleaning.JPG

testing procedure page 3.JPG

testing procedure page 2.JPG

testing procedure  page 1.JPG

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I don't know much about any specifics on how these machines work, but I'm willing to recklessly throw some thoughts out there regardless...

First of all, that's some cool Rube Goldberg rocket scientry mechanism. Looks like it does the business and nothing made from unobtanium at all. Congrats on that.

The RPM shown seems to me like it would be adequate for washing parts. Maybe a tad slower than I've seen elsewhere but whether optimum or not, it's just my gut feeling that it should do the trick. If it would oscillate, it might be more effective, but the RPM itself seems to be in the ballpark.

I feel like the fluid level shown is a bit shallow and likely to pull air into the fluid pretty easily. I don't know for sure on this either, but it seems like at rest, the top of the "fan blades" of the basket should likely be submerged (maybe a half inch?). Otherwise, it appears that the various baffling materials you put into the jar are doing the trick and dampening down the vortex adequately. This is just what it looks like to my eyes. Understand that no matter what you do, a spinning basket (or honestly even a smooth marble) will create some amount of vortex. The baffling is only reducing it down to an acceptable level, which you appear to have accomplished

For a test, you could probably just come up with a commando home-brew DIY torture test and try it out. Simply do something like picking a couple parts with large enough flat & smooth surface that it's easy to see, like maybe a mainspring barrel disc or the like, and maybe a cap jewel or something too. Put a small drop of used motor oil on it, or maybe something waxy & sticky like some kind of grease, and maybe even some sharpie marker. Use your imagination and spend some time trying different substances. Anyway, after checking out the dirty test piece, run it through and check the results afterward. Whether or not you get some "official standard" or not, this will give you a good idea what kind of result your cleaner is able to accomplish.

I suspect that your device will work well. My only criticism is the level seemed low and likely pulling more air down into the fluid during the stir than you want.

All my thoughts are unqualified and just gut feelings. Defer to experienced replies if possible.

Edited by Vinito
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Cool - I made a tadpole of progress.

I've got a pot connected so I can change the speed of the oscillating motor. I need to add the switch so I can select between constant spin and oscillation. Also, I'm sure once I implement interrupts, I can simplify the code and at the same time, smooth the motor up too.

Hopefully I'll figure that out soon. I'm kind of learning to code from scratch again. I can't remember the simplest of stuff from back when I kind of knew a little of how to do it several years ago. I hate considering the difference between how much I've forgotten vs. how good I'd be at it had I stuck with it all these years instead of totally ignoring it.

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I think you might find the link below interesting. The company that makes cleaning machines including for watches. This page has the documentation. Like they ran the Omega cleaning test to show that their machine does a good job of cleaning and so it explains a little about that. Then there is the manual for the Freedom - English Owners Manual. What makes it interesting as it is all kinds of interesting specifications specifically for programming the machine that but you might find that information useful for your own machine. It even gives RPMs

http://lititzpp.com/documentation.php

 

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  • 8 months later...
On 1/14/2023 at 11:28 AM, Vinito said:

Cool - I made a tadpole of progress.

I've got a pot connected so I can change the speed of the oscillating motor. I need to add the switch so I can select between constant spin and oscillation. Also, I'm sure once I implement interrupts, I can simplify the code and at the same time, smooth the motor up too.

Hopefully I'll figure that out soon. I'm kind of learning to code from scratch again. I can't remember the simplest of stuff from back when I kind of knew a little of how to do it several years ago. I hate considering the difference between how much I've forgotten vs. how good I'd be at it had I stuck with it all these years instead of totally ignoring it.

How is this project going?  Fascinated by and actual open source option.

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