Finally ready to do some proper pegging

[suomaf]

Hey guys, 

 

Been a while, real life got in the way of this hobby for a bit. Been watching the brilliant Alex Hamilton's Its about time Channel https://www.youtube.com/@Its_About_Time. One of the tips he mentioned in his videos is to make these pegging tools for jewel holes. I finally got around to it and now I am so ready to do some proper pegging.

 

Wishing you all health, happiness and love this holiday, Happy new year!

 

Stephen 

[mikepilk]

Which video is it - I'd like to see why he is doing it?

Does he just rotate them in the jewel holes? That is what the part is doing anyway.

The idea of pegging, is to use a soft and slightly absorbent material  (i.e. wood) to clean out the jewel holes. When pressed lightly, the wood moulds itself to the hole shape, and cleans any stuck on grime. The metal tools won't do that. 

[suomaf]

48 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

Which video is it - I'd like to see why he is doing it?

Does he just rotate them in the jewel holes? That is what the part is doing anyway.

The idea of pegging, is to use a soft and slightly absorbent material  (i.e. wood) to clean out the jewel holes. When pressed lightly, the wood moulds itself to the hole shape, and cleans any stuck on grime. The metal tools won't do that. 

 

[mikepilk]

That's just the balance jewel hole. I think its' reasonable what he's doing, as it's very hard to peg as it's so small. (I suggest that not many bother to peg this as he balance movement stops it getting too dirty?). I sometimes use a sharpened oiler if it looks like it needs a clean.

BUT, all the other (larger) jewel holes: sharpened pegwood is what you need to clean them !

 

[suomaf]

Thanks, it was fun making the tools but I have been pegging using the peg wood

[mikepilk]

It's good practice to peg the hole jewels. As I suggested, most don't bother with the balance hole jewels, unless there looks to be hardened crud on them, or there's a problem with amplitude.

The smaller holes are a real hassle to peg. It's hard to get the pegwood sharp enough, then it breaks off in the hole. I use an old sharpened oiler to push the bits out.

The holes that are really essential to peg (thanks to info from nickelsilver) are the pallet arbor jewels. As they aren't lubricated, and tiny bits of dirt can kill the amplitude. Even if I don't peg any other jewels, I always try and do these. 

Happy pegging

[VWatchie]

On 12/22/2022 at 1:45 PM, mikepilk said:

I sometimes use a sharpened oiler if it looks like it needs a clean.

I want your opinions about using a smoothing broach. For some reason, I don't feel comfortable with this method. Maybe my feelings are unfounded. Let me know what you think!

[mikepilk]

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

I want your opinions about using a smoothing broach. For some reason, I don't feel comfortable with this method. Maybe my feelings are unfounded. Let me know what you think!

As the jewels are harder than the broach, I don't see any problem. I hadn't thought of using broaches, I might start using them on crusty jewels.

[VWatchie]

7 hours ago, mikepilk said:

As the jewels are harder than the broach, I don't see any problem.

I see your point, thanks! If the method is safe it seems very convenient and would avoid the risk of contaminating the jewel hole with pegwood chips. It makes me wonder why we use peg wood. Is it true that a material softer than another material can't scratch it?

[Neverenoughwatches]

9 hours ago, VWatchie said:

I want your opinions about using a smoothing broach. For some reason, I don't feel comfortable with this method. Maybe my feelings are unfounded. Let me know what you think!

Eyup H  like most ideas i have tried this, i know Bergeon do broaches small enough to fit inside escapement and balance jewel holes. I wasn't over keen on the idea, pivots can crack jewels we know this, an accident while pegging with a broach might have the same effect. If theres something really hard stuck in a hole i would poke it out with something sharp like this but to regularly peg with steel doesn't sound like a traditional method. Broaches have a cutting edge, smoothing broaches i assume Mark is using , I didn't watch more than a few seconds of the video so depends why exactly he did that. Smoothing broaches have cutting edges, polished pivots riding in jewel holes, though steel on jewel its not the same to me, would it potentially scratch the hole . My cleaning style is eclectic and can be different from day to day, i get bored easily and hate monotonous tasks. I like modern technology cleaning, whizzy , spinney,  shakey devices but i also like the personal approach to traditional all manual hand cleaning of a movement,  getting in touch with it, I may see something not seen before and learn ffom it. Most cleaning days is a combination of the two, pick from the bones of this anything that gives you .  I have a couple of little basic items i like to use and by chance @oldhippy used one of them in his day, i think old tradesmen think alike regardless of the trade ( like old allotment boys come up with simple ingenious ideas and make use of anything and everything ). A small screw top lid ( brilliant ingenuity eh ) in this i put a little paraffin, this stuff shifts dried on oil unlike anything I've used to date, it doesn’t evaporate and wets metal surfaces as quick as Usain Bolt on a track day . The plate and bridges receive generally a 15 minute soak in this after scraping heavy dirt off with a chisel edged pegwood. Then i peg the jewels using pegwood or toothpick soaked again in paraffin, after a quick dry in tissue paper i then rinse off in brake cleaner and blow dry. Really stubborn dirt and its usually unnecessary or if i just feel like it i float the tin or a deeper wider tin in a mini ultrasonic cleaner. The other basic item i like to use is the soaking pegwood holder, it just looks right traditional on my bench, thats just a little glass candlestick holder. I just love tradition and a traditional looking workshop ( note the paraffin and API jugs, this is a cruet set i picked up for a quid at a boot sale, again just an example of how i like an environment to look and feel )  mine does have modern stuff mixed in as well, just not a lot but....just because some equipment makes life that bit easier and quicker. Just finish my special first morning coffee and I'll chuck a couple of pictures up to explain what I'm talking about.  Have a great day H and everyone X

The floaty tin is more specifically for cleaning balance and hairsprings. 

[mikepilk]

The pegwood is slightly absorbent, and deforms to the shape of the hole, wiping away any deposits in, and around the holes. I use pegwood then a sharpened oiler. I imagine the oiler would remove any really crusty bits in the hole, and it's useful for pushing out the bits of pegwood when they break off. 

[VWatchie]

Thanks for your thoughts!

Related is when would be the right time to peg?

I am reluctant to peg before the watch is cleaned as most of the dirt is loose and disappears in my watch cleaning machine. Often under 40x magnification, the jewel holes look perfectly clean which makes me question the need to peg at all, but if I understand correctly it should always be done anyway.

Also, I am under the impression, perhaps wrongly, that IPA (my last rinse) forms a film in the jewel hole that needs to be removed. On the other hand, there is a high risk that small pieces of pegwood will get stuck in the jewel holes which then need to be cleaned again.

I am not at all sure what is best 

4 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Bergeon do broaches small enough to fit inside escapement and balance jewel holes

The smallest size on Cousins is 0.10 mm (not Bergeon) which would often be too large for many pallet staff holes. Do you have a source?

[HectorLooi]

With the use of a modern, 40KHz ultrasound cleaner, I don't think jewel holes need to be pegged anymore.

I usually only peg brass bushings with a round smooth reamer, with very light pressure and more of a rotating action. My objective is to burnish the brass.

[mikepilk]

I always peg before cleaning. If the jewels are dirty, I do a pre-clean with some naphtha and a paint brush working the bristles in to the jewel hole. I then peg and use the sharpened oiler.

Between the Elma cleaner and rinse, and rinse and IPA, I blow the fluid out of the jewel holes. If not, you can get a visible residue left on the jewels. The IPA just evaporates, no need to blow the holes.

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

am not at all sure what is best 

Just my thoughts, but what is best in my head is a pre soak and pegging to save cleaning jar contamination , a plate and a few bridges take a few minutes to peg, if pinion leaves are caked up i may chuck those in as well or they sit in a tin floating in the ultrasonic. 

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

Thanks for your thoughts!

Related is when would be the right time to peg?

I am reluctant to peg before the watch is cleaned as most of the dirt is loose and disappears in my watch cleaning machine. Often under 40x magnification, the jewel holes look perfectly clean which makes me question the need to peg at all, but if I understand correctly it should always be done anyway.

Also, I am under the impression, perhaps wrongly, that IPA (my last rinse) forms a film in the jewel hole that needs to be removed. On the other hand, there is a high risk that small pieces of pegwood will get stuck in the jewel holes which then need to be cleaned again.

I am not at all sure what is best 

The smallest size on Cousins is 0.10 mm (not Bergeon) which would often be too large for many pallet staff holes. Do you have a source?

Bergeon come thinner than this. 

[oldhippy]

Are you undertaking this task because you don't clean the movements by a watch cleaning machine? If you do have one there is no need to do such a task. If the machine is not performing as it should you need to change the fluid or fluids or there is a problem with the machine. Another thing these cheap ultrasonic baths that you can get from China are crap.   

[mikepilk]

45 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

Are you undertaking this task because you don't clean the movements by a watch cleaning machine? If you do have one there is no need to do such a task. If the machine is not performing as it should you need to change the fluid or fluids or there is a problem with the machine. Another thing these cheap ultrasonic baths that you can get from China are crap.   

@oldhippy You seem to be critical of all things from China 

My 60W ultrasonic is made in China and does a good job. But there are baked on bits of crud that cleaning machines and ultrasonics do not dislodge. Hence pegging, just to be sure. There's a report somewhere of a test which shows amplitude improvement on movements (cleaned in 'professional' cleaning machines) from pegging various holes.

You would be surprised how many things are made in China, but not labelled as such. I just had a look on the back of my new Philips monitor - made in China.  As is the Amscope microscope on my desk. Your phone, TV, computer, vacuum, car etc are possibly made in China. If you have any Apple product (not me ) iPhone, iPod, Mac book, it is made in China. I wonder if any Bergeon/Horotec tools are actually made in China?

[nickelsilver]

I agree that on fairly modern stuff that doesn't have decades old dry oil/grease, using a pro machine and pro cleaning solutions, pegging isn't really necessary. Usually. But it really is on old stuff that does have caked up junky oil. I have seen stuff that didn't come off after 2 or even 3 runs through the machine, Greiner ACS 900. Dang thing cost as much (second hand) as a used car.

 

Like mikepilk I preclean with benzine and a brush on stuff that I even suspect a little bit. Peg jewels, push pinions into pithwood soaked in benzine. According to my colleague, who used to work for them, even Rolex prescribes pegging jewels and pithing pinions, preclean, and final cleaning when servicing their stuff.

 

As to the search for an alternative to actual pegwood; regular old pegwood is the choice of pros and manufacturers, and has been for many many years, because it works the best. If you have trouble sharpening it, it could be a poor batch, but more likely not a sharp enough blade. I use the Olfa Black blades in my 9mm cutter knives, they are great.

[Klassiker]

10 hours ago, VWatchie said:

Is it true that a material softer than another material can't scratch it?

This is true, but the danger in using a sharpened oiler or a broach to peg jewels is not scratching but chipping. A softer, tougher material can easily cause cracks or chips in a harder, more brittle one. I have learned the hard way and only use an oiler or similar to clear a jewel if nothing else works.

[oldhippy]

2 hours ago, mikepilk said:

@oldhippy You seem to be critical of all things from China

I have seen so many comments not just on this site but on the net that chinese tools are a mindfield, you might get a good one then the next is crap, they don't seem to have inspectors for quality control, if they do they must all be poor sighted or like Stevie Wonder. 

[JohnR725]

55 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

I have seen so many comments not just on this site but on the net that chinese tools are a mindfield, you might get a good one then the next is crap, they don't seem to have inspectors for quality control, if they do they must all be poor sighted or like Stevie Wonder.

we end up with way too many problems even discuss this. For instance the Chinese love the clone stuff and they like the clone their own stuff. So often times a product that will look identical from a variety of sources will be actually different products of all different quality levels.

one of the YouTube channels I subscribed to for 3-D printers basically was giving up even reviewing Chinese products. The frustration was at the productivity typically be asked to review may not actually match the final product. Even if it did match the final product of the company tried to have good quality control the products they purchase to go in the printers may or may not have good quality control.

but there are some good Chinese products out there at a good price and they do have good quality control. But is also just the opposite out there if you're not careful and really can't tell by visually looking sometimes.

1 hour ago, Klassiker said:

This is true, but the danger in using a sharpened oiler or a broach to peg jewels is not scratching but chipping. A softer, tougher material can easily cause cracks or chips in a harder, more brittle one. I have learned the hard way and only use an oiler or similar to clear a jewel if nothing else works.

another problem of anything hard in they jewel is the possibility of shipping if you do not go straight in. You could conceivably chipped the edge. Or if you're dealing with anything of vintage which has natural stones that tend to be flawed anyway it's not going to take very much to chip or break those.

8 hours ago, VWatchie said:

lso, I am under the impression, perhaps wrongly, that IPA (my last rinse) forms a film in the jewel hole that needs to be removed.

I'm rather curious about this one because the final rinse in our Elma very exotic expensive cleaning machine is isopropyl alcohol specifically recommended by them to rinse off the rinse that wasn't drying. I don't recall seeing anywhere that said we have to?

I'm attaching an interesting Omega document from the 50s on cleaning and oiling watches. On PDF page 6 you can find the following image on pegging out.

 

Oiling Omega watches 1957.PDF

[VWatchie]

Many thanks for sharing your pegging methods. Very valuable and appreciated! 

The reason I asked my questions about pegging is my Rolex 3135 project. The entire movement was covered in microscopic metal pieces coming from the rotor dragging on the outer edge of the movement and these metal pieces penetrated almost everywhere.

So, I chose to let the parts soak in a good degreaser (Horosolv) for 48 hours. Then I cleaned all the parts manually with paint brushes of a few different sizes while they were still bathing in the degreaser in a petri dish. I also had to replace the degreaser on a couple of occasions. I was particularly careful with the jewel holes. It was an extremely time-consuming and tedious job to get everything clean, but I know my watch-cleaning machine wouldn't have been enough in this case. Finally, I pegged all the bearings until no dirt was visible on the wooden tip and now the jewel holes look completely clean. Getting it clean took me more than a whole working day. Some of the metal/oil/dirt was extremely stubborn. Truly hard work! 

The next step will be to run the parts in my watch-cleaning machine and then it is time to burnish some of the pivots. Fortunately, the owner seems to have stopped using the watch when the rotor completely stopped working so the damage done looks so far limited.

I get the impression some Rolex owners believe their watches are indestructible. Isn't that the general reputation of this brand? They run it until it stops ticking and then take it in for a service 

[mikepilk]

I have very little experience of Rolex - I just serviced one for a friend. It had the same problem as yours - the rotor pivot was broken and the rotor had been dragging across the movement. From what I have read, this seems to be a weakness in some Rolex - weak rotor pivots.

[VWatchie]

1 minute ago, mikepilk said:

From what I have read, this seems to be a weakness in some Rolex - weak rotor pivots.

Yes, and it has been described as a design flaw by many including @Jon in my thread about the watch. No problem as long as you service it when needed but if not it can lead to some truly bad things.

4 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

I have very little experience of Rolex - I just serviced one for a friend.

That's exactly what I'm doing.

[Jon]

54 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

I have very little experience of Rolex - I just serviced one for a friend.

How did you find it to service? What was the movement?

55 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

From what I have read, this seems to be a weakness in some Rolex - weak rotor pivots.

They're fine as long as the are lubricated properly and often, but they're not