ETA 2472 low amplitude - impulse jewel fouling pallet horn?

[VWatchie]

8 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

What I don't understand is; how is it that oiling pallets is so emphasized on but oiling impulse jewel isn't.  

1 hour ago, mikepilk said:

Very good question. I'd like to know the answer.

I would like to know that too. I've never heard anyone even mention the idea of oiling the roller jewel until now, and there's possibly a good reason for that, but what it is I have no idea. 

So, joe, do you usually oil the impulse jewel or is it just an idea that you have? What kind of experience do you have?

[Nucejoe]

33 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

I would like to know that too. I've never heard anyone even mention the idea of oiling the roller jewel until now, and there's possibly a good reason for that, but what it is I have no idea. 

So, joe, do you usually oil the impulse jewel or is it just an idea that you have? What kind of experience do you have?

Hi, VW, Mike , I do oil the impulse jewel, but a wee  wee bit.

 Have heard the same arguement as to why not as you would for not oiling fork pivots,    ie;   doesn't engage much , only works for a short period, doesn't stay on the jewel and accumulates where it does no good......etc.. Most of its downside might not hold true if epioamed only. 

You gents have tg and epilame, so its upon you to try epilame only and observe its short term effect.  

Rgds

 

[VWatchie]

1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

Hi, VW, Mike , I do oil the impulse jewel, but a wee  wee bit.

Thanks, Joe!

What oil do you use? Moebius 9415? So, I guess it would be beneficial to epilame treat the impulse jewel and the fork end/slot! before trying this!?

Is anyone else oiling their impulse jewels? Any conclusions drawn on amplitude impact?

[Klassiker]

2 hours ago, VWatchie said:

I've never heard anyone even mention the idea of oiling the roller jewel until now, and there's possibly a good reason for that, but what it is I have no idea

We started discussing it some time ago but it fizzled out - see this thread:

JohnR725's clear advice was to not oil, but didn't expand on the reasons.

Edited January 6, 2023 by Klassiker
Duplicated link removed

[nickelsilver]

We were taught in school to never oil the impulse jewel, and I never have. There is some debate over what effect epilame would have on a fork slot to impulse jewel, and I have seen pics of rust there attributed to the fork slot being epilamed. But it was taught for a long time to epilame the entire fork, and many still do this, apparently with no ill effect. One possible explanation for the rusty fork slot (rust being where it contacts the impulse jewel) was that the fork wasn't allowed to dry in warm air after epilaming; this could cause condensation to form, initiating the rust.

 

To be safe I just epilame the pallet jewels.

 

Of note- it's also a no-no to oil the teeth and impulse jewel in a chronometer (detent) escapement, where the escape wheel delivers impulse directly to the roller. I have seen cases where those were oiled, and in every one there was excessive wear on the teeth. There is a tiny bit of sliding when the tooth gives impulse, but it has always been considered one of the best escapements of all time in part because it works fantastically without oil, and the variables oil there can induce over time are eliminated. Other pieces I've seen that weren't oiled have been in perfect condition after a century or more of use. So I tend to listen to the collective wisdom taught in books and schools, no oil on fork slot/impulse jewel, no oil on chronometer escape teeth. Oil on the fork pivots is a matter of choice, the only down side I see is a potential drop in amplitude, and the drop increasing over time as the oil degrades.

[JohnR725]

10 hours ago, VWatchie said:

roller jewel

Thank you I didn't want to feel stupid by asking what impulse jewel is.

Here's a question what if we were talking about o'clock would that change the answer? Now you have to go into the clock section and ask what's the difference between a lever escapement o'clock and in a watch or I might be nice and answer the question below but clock people do oil the impulse pin in their clocks especially if it's brass or maybe steal I can't remember it typically don't oil the jewels but maybe they do some clocks they seem to put a heck of a lot oil on them.

8 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

We were taught in school to never oil the impulse jewel, and I never have. There is some debate over what effect epilame would have on a fork slot to impulse jewel, and I have seen pics of rust there attributed to the fork slot being epilamed. But it was taught for a long time to epilame the entire fork, and many still do this, apparently with no ill effect. One possible explanation for the rusty fork slot (rust being where it contacts the impulse jewel) was that the fork wasn't allowed to dry in warm air after epilaming; this could cause condensation to form, initiating the rust.

One of the problems we have with rules on lubrication is they will date back to organic lubricants where as they go bad they can get sticky and sticky like pallet fork pivots that are sticky that's bad sticky roller jewel's very bad but what about modern oils they don't get sticky? Even make oils for my quartz watches where the wheels have to revolve superfast when there engaged seems like they might be good for the pallet fork pivots?

Epilam on the pallet fork? Even going back to the 50s for Omega they recommended not treating the pallet fork at all because they were concerned about the pallet fork sticking to the banking pins. I'm snipping out the page on epilam from 1957 you'll see the recommendation and why sticky. But also notice other things they recommend not treating like the basically the entire pallet fork. Then of course they recommend the balance pivots which is what eta has been doing for years on their watches you just typically don't see it you have to look at the manufacturing information sheets because it's not normally in the technical documentation.

Then yes there is a big debate at least with the older versions of epilam where the solvent evaporates incredibly fast and causes a cooling effect that causes moisture in the air and rust. I've also heard a suggestion that the moisture could get trapped under the epilam when it's busy cooling I'm not sure how true that was but we both seen pictures somebody posted of rusty roller jewel's claiming it was the condensation formed when it cooled. Except the new epilam is supposed to be environmentally friendly and that's not supposed to happen.

Then for clock people a lot of times there pallet fork is made out of brass. Then instead of having a nice Ruby jewel they have a brass pin and apparently it's better if that is oil as otherwise brass on brass they claim is sticky. At least that's what the clock people claim.

Edited January 6, 2023 by JohnR725

[Endeavor]

Slowly off topic, but reading the above one start to question ones own practices. So far, I've been oiling the impulse planes of the pallet-jewels before the installment of the pallet-fork. To get a nice stable & convenient "platform", I stick the fork (horns/safety-pin) in Rodico. Some people claim that Rodico leaves an unwanted film, so after oiling and before installment, I stick / dip the horns in some Pith wood.

If the cleanness for the fork notch can have such an dramatic influence on the amplitude, is the use of Rodico wise at all ? Same for when pivots have been in contact with Rodico.

If there has already been a discussion about the influence of the use of Rodico, please point me to it and I do apologize for my "off topic", possible amplitude influencing, question.

Edited January 7, 2023 by Endeavor

[mikepilk]

4 hours ago, Endeavor said:

Slowly off topic, but reading the above one start to question ones own practices. So far, I've been oiling the impulse planes of the pallet-jewels before the installment of the pallet-fork, . To get a nice stable & convenient "platform", I stick the fork (horns/safety-pin) in Rodico. Some people claim that Rodico leaves an unwanted film, so after oiling and before installment, I stick / dip the horns in some Pith wood.

If the cleanness for the fork notch can have such an dramatic influence on the amplitude, is the use of Rodico wise at all ? Same for when pivots have been in contact with Rodico.

If there has already been a discussion about the influence of the use of Rodico, please point me to it and I do apologize for my "off topic", possible amplitude influencing, question.

I wonder that too. When assembling, I often use some clean Rodico to dab jewels/pivots etc to make sure there are not bits of dust on them. Even after cleaning/rinsing, some jewels show a 'film' around the hole, which I wipe away with Rodico. 

I should add - that when working on cleaned parts, I never touch the rodico with bare fingers, only finger cots or tools.

Edited January 7, 2023 by mikepilk

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, Endeavor said:

If there has already been a discussion about the influence of the use of Rodico, please point me to it and I do apologize for my "off topic", possible amplitude influencing, question.

Somewhere ones in the horological times a publication of the American watch and clockmakers Institute they got obsessed with Rodico. It's actually a banned substance a lot of repair shops. So basically what the concern is it acts like a sponge it absorbs things which is why we like it. But it doesn't just magically transport whatever it absorbs to another universe it's still in the substance and then it leaves a residue film behind. For lubrication even a microscopic film of something left behind will cause your oil to spread away from wherever you put it.

I think for me one of the most interesting examples of the effect of the evil substance was in the British horological Institute magazine somebody was doing a review of a witschi watch expert number one their first of the watch expert series. So from memory what happened was the person playing with their machine learning about stuff to the balance wheel out and clean the pivots with Rodico And discovered a loss of amplitude.

This is where a lot of things that are done were done before we had these newfangled timing machines that had numbers we had to please Like the push for greater amplitudes and now we can see the effect of stuff.

I went googling to see what I can find and I found this this is quite amusing and interesting read.

https://www.cmtradelaw.com/2020/09/customs-ruling-of-the-week-classification-of-rodico-cleaning-putty/

Okay it's amazing what you can find online if you're lucky. What you want to pay attention to is the very start the very starting discussion has some links one of them is a link to the PDF for the horological times magazine that talks about the evil of the substance. oh and in case you're curious yes I have someone my bench. Evil or not it still has its uses.

https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/does-rodico-invite-corrosion.164399/

 

 

[Endeavor]

Hmm , yes I do/did touch Rodico with my bare fingers and yes, I do/did use it way too long

Thanks and another lesson learned

[fellerts]

On 1/6/2023 at 9:48 AM, mikepilk said:

How is it DU ? I recently installed a new staff and got too high an amplitude as one end of the staff wasn't rounded (it had a little 'nipple' on). 

Tested it in four positions on a full wind, letting it settle for about 5 min for each position:

DD: 344°, DU: 308°, CR: 255°, CD: 261°

I have a new mainspring on the way. However I'm not sure if the wrong mainspring could cause such discrepancies between positions? I understand that you would normally expect the amplitude to decrease then the movement is vertical, but I don't have the experience to know how much of a difference to expect.

[mikepilk]

20 minutes ago, fellerts said:

Tested it in four positions on a full wind, letting it settle for about 5 min for each position:

DD: 344°, DU: 308°, CR: 255°, CD: 261°

I have a new mainspring on the way. However I'm not sure if the wrong mainspring could cause such discrepancies between positions? I understand that you would normally expect the amplitude to decrease then the movement is vertical, but I don't have the experience to know how much of a difference to expect.

The difference between horizontal and vertical looks OK. You get less amplitude when vertical as the side of the pivot is rubbing on the hole jewel, giving more friction.

The difference DD/DU is more than it should be (say, <10°). Worth re-cleaning/oiling the balance cock jewel.

[VWatchie]

15 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Thank you I didn't want to feel stupid by asking what impulse jewel is.

"Dear child has many names", but I would assume that what you're trying to say is that "roller jewel" is the correct nomenclature, no? Googling this it would appear "impulse jewel" is the more common designation.

[JohnR725]

6 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

"roller jewel" is the correct nomenclature, no? Googling this it would appear "impulse jewel" is the more common designation.

Common perhaps but correct?

Rather than googling how about a different site?

https://www.cousinsuk.com/search?searchTerm=Roller Impulse Pin Jewels%2C Seitz

 

[Klassiker]

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

16 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Thank you I didn't want to feel stupid by asking what impulse jewel is.

"Dear child has many names", but I would assume that what you're trying to say is that "roller jewel" is the correct nomenclature, no?

A search through the published resources in my possession turned up roller pin, roller jewel, ruby pin, impulse pin and ruby impulse pin as correct terms. Does this make John stupid for not understanding what was meant by roller jewel?

 

Edited January 7, 2023 by Klassiker

[Endeavor]

Thanks for enlighten me, I always thought it was the impulse jewel, that makes 6 names for the same "thing" 

 

[mikepilk]

I'm with @JohnR725 on this one - I think "roller jewel" is more obvious and clear. It's a jewel on the roller!  Fried refers to it as a roller jewel.  You could argue that "impulse jewels" are the pallet jewels as they give an impulse.

(Pity it isn't lubricated, or we could have a massive argument over this  )

Edited January 7, 2023 by mikepilk

[fellerts]

While I'm thoroughly enjoying your discussion on terminology (I'm in camp "impulse jewel" by the way), I need to reel us back on topic. I got a new GR3271X mainspring today as recommended here. It did not reduce my amplitude:

I'm very curious to learn what might cause this.

As mentioned previously I have another 2472 that I'm servicing in parallel and I'm getting around 310 degrees DD on that one - no rebanking though. Do these movement just run "hot"?

 

Edited January 9, 2023 by fellerts

[VWatchie]

13 minutes ago, fellerts said:

I'm servicing in parallel and I'm getting around 310 degrees DD on that one - no rebanking though. Do these movement just run "hot"?

It's pure coincidence or you're gifted! Take your pick! 

On 1/7/2023 at 6:50 PM, mikepilk said:

I think "roller jewel" is more obvious and clear. It's a jewel on the roller! 

Yep, you nailed it! From here on out, I suggest we decide to say roller jewel. 

[Klassiker]

On 1/7/2023 at 6:50 PM, mikepilk said:

You could argue that "impulse jewels" are the pallet jewels as they give an impulse

You could, but where is / are the impulse pins(s) in a pin pallet escapement?

1 hour ago, fellerts said:

back on topic

It could be that you have very pointy balance pivots, and they need to be rounded off or flattened somewhat.

Edited January 9, 2023 by Klassiker
Corrected nomenclature (!)

[fellerts]

On 1/9/2023 at 11:23 PM, VWatchie said:

It's pure coincidence or you're gifted! Take your pick! 

The latter seems unlikely 

 

On 1/10/2023 at 12:23 AM, Klassiker said:

It could be that you have very pointy balance pivots, and they need to be rounded off or flattened somewhat.

Good suggestion, sounds like that could lead to reduced friction. I assume the movement wouldn't leave the factory with this issue, so the only explanation for this (if this is actually the issue) is that a previous tinkerer replaced or modified the original balance staff?

I'll try to get some good close-up pictures of the pivots.

[nickelsilver]

On 1/9/2023 at 11:07 PM, fellerts said:

While I'm thoroughly enjoying your discussion on terminology (I'm in camp "impulse jewel" by the way), I need to reel us back on topic. I got a new GR3271X mainspring today as recommended here. It did not reduce my amplitude:

 

I'm very curious to learn what might cause this.

As mentioned previously I have another 2472 that I'm servicing in parallel and I'm getting around 310 degrees DD on that one - no rebanking though. Do these movement just run "hot"?

 

What braking grease did you use? If let down 2-3 teeth on the ratchet wheel, does the amplitude go down appreciably? It's not particularly normal for these movement or other of their vintage to run with excessive amplitude, more likely is a struggle to get sufficient amplitude.

[fellerts]

1 hour ago, nickelsilver said:

What braking grease did you use?

I put four blobs of Moebius 8217 around the barrel wall. I did not lubricate the new spring. Perhaps I used too much or too little braking grease?

1 hour ago, nickelsilver said:

If let down 2-3 teeth on the ratchet wheel, does the amplitude go down appreciably?

Not really. I wound down the mainspring and measured it after 1, 2, 3, ... full turns of the ratchet wheel. Here's what I found:

1 turn: +41 s/d, 262°, 0.5 ms BE

2 turns: +28 s/d, 295°, 0.3 ms BE

3 turns: +20 s/d, 316°, 0.2 ms BE

4 turns: +19 s/d, 332°, 0.2 ms BE

5 turns: +19 s/d, 340°, 0.2 ms BE

6 turns: wild rebanking, no sane measurement after 1 minute. At this point the mainspring wasn't slipping yet.

I took a slow-motion video of the balance at 1 turn of the ratchet wheel and confirmed that the amplitude was around 260 degrees, so the TM isn't lying.

2 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

It's not particularly normal for these movement or other of their vintage to run with excessive amplitude, more likely is a struggle to get sufficient amplitude.

That was my impression as well. I'm confused.

Could a magnetized movement behave like this? I've tried to demagnetize this but I may be doing it wrong. I have one of the cheap deadly single-button Chinese demagnetizers.

[fellerts]

I received "Practical watch repair" by Donald De Carle in the mail yesterday and I inhaled it. I can't remember seeing more beautiful illustrations before.

His suggested remedy for balance knocking is to replace the mainspring with a weaker one. However I figured why not do some experiments... So I cleaned the balance endstones and applied D5 instead of 9010, and this robbed the movement of around 15-20° of amplitude at all states of wind. However the balance was still knocking at 6 turns of the ratchet wheel, so I cleaned the train, bridges and mainplate and applied D5 to the whole train. This reduced the amplitude by yet another 20°, and I no longer saw knocking, but the amplitude was 335° at full wind which I decided is more than I'm comfortable with. Finally I applied D5 to the lever pivots giving 300° at full wind, 255° at three turns of the ratchet wheel.

Rather than replacing the mainspring, I'll leave the movement like this. Thanks for all your help guys!

[Klassiker]

3 hours ago, fellerts said:

300° at full wind, 255° at three turns of the ratchet wheel

That is in the horizontal positions, isn't it? As I recall, you were getting around 90 degrees less in the verticals, which is a big difference. How is that affecting your positional rate variation at full wind and after a night "at rest"? Are you happy with the timing performance on your wrist?