Replace jewel in pallet fork bridge

[pisswhistle]

I was nearing the end of servicing this seiko movement when I discovered that when the pallet fork bridge was very loosely screwed down, the pallet fork received power and snapped back and forth as it should, but when fully screwed down the pallet fork was squeezed too tightly and became sluggish. I read online that these jewels are usually friction fit and that I could push the jewel slightly further up to relieve the pressure on the pallet fork. I don't have the proper tool to do this so I fashioned my own, which was a poor choice. The jewel shattered of course, and now I need to figure out how to replace it and which of the hundreds of kinds of watch jewels available online is the correct one to get. Any help with this is greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[clockboy]

Replacing jewels requires accurate measurements of the old jewel the jewel hole and its setting. To fit and replace you need the correct tools because without them failure is highly likely.. 

Tools required: a bench top micrometer and a jeweling tool. 

 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, clockboy said:

Replacing jewels requires accurate measurements of the old jewel the jewel hole and its setting. To fit and replace you need the correct tools because without them failure is highly likely.. 

Tools required: a bench top micrometer and a jeweling tool. 

 

 

How to measure the jewel hole ? How would it be to use a smoothing broach inserted in the jewel hole, mark its depth and then measure its diameter at the marked point using a micrometer. 

[clockboy]

To measure the hole you need to measure the pivot to measure the jewel a micrometer could work but the jewel must be absolutely straight when measured. This is the correct tool for the measurements of the old jewel and pivot. Jewels can be purchased from Cousins by size. To fit the new jewel you need a jeweling tool to set it to the correct height.

 

 

 

Edited December 15, 2022 by clockboy

[Paul80]

In this case as it's a Seiko I would check with Cousins to see of a new pallet bridge is available, for a one off job it would a lot cheaper (under £20) than spending nearly £500 on the watchmakers micrometer and Jewelling tool. Or check with the usual used parts suppliers for a used part, Speedtimer in the Nederland's would be a good place to start.

[pisswhistle]

5 hours ago, Paul80 said:

In this case as it's a Seiko I would check with Cousins to see of a new pallet bridge is available, for a one off job it would a lot cheaper (under £20) than spending nearly £500 on the watchmakers micrometer and Jewelling tool. Or check with the usual used parts suppliers for a used part, Speedtimer in the Nederland's would be a good place to start.

Well I do like the sound of a cheap option! I'm having trouble identifying this movement to search for the part, any idea what it is? The case back is very worn but I can barely make out J14028A, and the inside of the case back has the number 910047. I tried searching for all of these online and they do lead to seiko watches, but none of them resemble the watch or movement I have. The only text on the movement itself that isn't visible in my initial post is C29 underneath the balance.

[VWatchie]

On 12/15/2022 at 8:28 PM, pisswhistle said:

Well I do like the sound of a cheap option! I'm having trouble identifying this movement to search for the part, any idea what it is?

I'm afraid not but I do hope someone with more experience in identifying movements will be able to help you out. Anyway, you may still be needing a jewelling tool. Even if the jewel in the bridge is correctly seated it could be that you might need to adjust the depth of the jewel in the main plate (or bridge) to make it work.

An affordable jewelling tool is a Chinese clone of Horia's jewelling tool. You can read about it here.

Good luck!

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

I'm afraid not but I do hope someone with more experience in identifying movements will be able to help you out.

Even if you have somebody who's experienced there's a problem? Were still missing some key information at least we got a nice picture of one side but we still need a picture of the other side. Also we need the diameter the movement and for that I've attached a PDF. Typically diameters of movements are not measured in millimeters Okay you measure in millimeters but you look on the chart And then you give us the ligne sizes.

Then the reason why we need the dial side is for a time span of I'm not sure how far back and how far into the future went but was a time span where all the setting parts of the watches are unique. So if you have typically a Swiss watch you know the size into what the setting parts look like you can look in the bestfit book an attempt to figure out what watch you. I did look bestfit book has some Seiko watches so may be but even if we identify there is no guarantee of parts because this is a vintage Seiko or be technically correct a vintage pre-Seiko watch. But still it looks like a nice-looking movement it be nice if we could save it.

watch-ligne-size-chart.pdf

EBay is nice in that with enough research you can find this looks very similar. Dials not exactly the same but movement looks really close. Say goodbye it and take the pallet fork bridge out use it for spare parts. Then yes prices interesting isn't it. It's a problem with the early Seiko watches like this there collectors items and yes there is a very interesting family of Seiko watches some of which there worth way more than this so it's well worth trying to save the one up above and probably not worth Two scrap the one below for parts even if it is identical.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/204151166230

[pisswhistle]

16 hours ago, VWatchie said:

An affordable jewelling tool is a Chinese clone of Horia's jewelling tool.

Thanks for the tip! If I'm not able to easily source a replacement part this seems like the best alternative.

13 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

It's a problem with the early Seiko watches like this there collectors items and yes there is a very interesting family of Seiko watches some of which there worth way more than this so it's well worth trying to save the one up above and probably not worth Two scrap the one below for parts even if it is identical

Wow I had no idea I was working on something that was worth that much, I bought this as a non-runner off ebay for $50!

13 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

measure in millimeters but you look on the chart And then you give us the ligne sizes.

The closest measurement on that chart seems to be 25.942mm or 11-1/2 lignes. I've attached photos of the other side of the movement as well as the measurement. Maybe I should repost this in the 'identify this movement' sub-forum?

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, pisswhistle said:

I bought this as a non-runner off ebay for $50!

I had wondered where you would purchase it from. Then I really like hearing these stories because that always opens up possibilities of me finding something like this on eBay.

Okay looks like it's about 11 1/2 size let's see if bestfit has anything. Then no you didn't really think it was going to be this easy did you?. As you can see from the image and though I didn't specifically ask for it you need to deal the clearly see all three parts but I snipped out both sections of the book you can see the ones that I've indicated are probably similar. You'll notice there's a star on each of the images some don't have the start the fine print says these watches all have the same setting components but nothing else may possibly interchange perhaps. So it basically narrows us down to a category of Seiko watches that parts may or may not interchange.

Well it is confirming what I suspected it's part of a family. More jewels not as expensive as the other one but notice the similarities. It looks like may be the caliber is the name on the dial so perhaps it's a Seikosha Cronos.  Which unfortunately still brings up a similar problem of no tech sheets because they probably didn't do tech sheets back then and if they did its can be all in Japanese perhaps and possibly no parts at all because they probably don't have any parts plus of course it's older and anything that gets to be older has parts problems anyway.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/125394095183

Once we know what the look for it is one it's 23 jewels

https://www.ebay.com/itm/314062957926

Looks like it probably is a Seikosha Cronos Because of you do a search on eBay and notice how it appears to be a seller in Japan the movements are all basically identical except of course the jewel account and at the lower end one like yours a different spring for the balance jewel assembly. But I'm assuming that all the parts probably interchange in that particular family.

It looks like as I said they're all part of the family they start adding extra names on number of jewels go up price goes up etc. and it looks like the parts interchange if we could find them perhaps you can see how closely this one matches yours

https://adventuresinamateurwatchfettling.com/2018/02/25/a-wabi-sabi-seiko-cronos-sea-horse-from-1961/

Then on the website above he mentions the mainspring of listing and I'm assuming he means this page notice basically almost no parts available

http://cgi.julesborel.com/cgi-bin/matcgi2?ref=SEK_CRONOS

By the way did you do a search on this message board? I usually get frustrated with the search but sometimes I rewarded with things like this that I find by searching the Internet. Notice the similarity to your watch?

https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/6521-handwind-seiko-cronos-cal54/

If you're lucky Seiko wasn't super creative my understanding is the Japanese like to make things in quantity they don't necessarily like to make things in small quantities. So maybe would find a lot of parts interchangeability's but that doesn't necessarily help. Now why am I saying that because there is a link to the parts site again notice the balance wheel interchanges with the previous balance wheels that's a good sign but do you see the pallet fork bridge listed anywhere? See a lot of parts listed which may or may not be available but a lot of times the bridges are not necessarily available

http://cgi.julesborel.com/cgi-bin/matcgi2?ref=SEK_54A

Oh did find a reference to a museum if you scroll down far enough you'll see at least the name of your watch unfortunately no movement pictures which isn't the best but it gives a clue of when your watch came from and where

https://www.thenakedwatchmaker.com/museum-seiko-tokyo

I'm attaching a PDF notice the setting parts do not match your watch. But I want you to look at the pallet fork bridge carefully and see if it looks at all the similar. This was a suggestion on a different group because basically technical anything for your watch is impossible and someone suggested may be something from this watch might work. It's basically back to my thoughts that may be Seiko doesn't get super creative and uses parts over multiple generations of four lucky or in your case if you're lucky otherwise we're going to have to replace the jewel that got damaged.

On 12/15/2022 at 11:28 AM, pisswhistle said:

J14028A,

Then I did find out what this number is it's your serial number. A lot of people posted on groups like the model number but it's not it's the serial number. Then apparently The watch is a simply referred to by Seiko as the "Cronos" caliber, without a number. It came in 3 jewel counts (17, 21, and 23).  But on the group I'm currently looking at it looks like parts to interchange with other watches. Conceivably worst-case we might have to if we can find another part just steal the pallet fork bridge jewel if the bridges do not fit.

So this should give you enough reading for a little while give you a starting place.

55 Lord Marvel.pdf

[pisswhistle]

On 12/18/2022 at 10:25 PM, JohnR725 said:

this should give you enough reading for a little while give you a starting place

Indeed!

Apologies for not responding for a month... but after many hours of research, I found it! https://buyee.jp/item/yahoo/auction/t1064529022?lang=en&rc=yaucc_mod

The only issue is, that website looks incredibly suspicious and I don't think I want to give it my credit card info... Has anyone seen this website before and can vouch for it?

 

The way I finally found it was by stumbling across this conversation while researching the possibility of cal 54A that you had found

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/seikoholicssupportforum/an-old-post-about-caliber-numbers-t381.html

and one of those users mentions that seiko cal 54 eventually was renamed to 44. This led me to find the following interchange list someone posted that included information on cal 44

https://www.thewatchsite.com/threads/seiko-list-watch-parts-interchangeability-list-additional-issue.26088/

which told me the pallet bridge (or I guess pallet cock) was item no 161440. Googling that, I found it was indeed a pallet bridge but the wrong one, so then it seemed smart to replace the 44 with 54, which turns out to be correct. So it is seiko part number 161540 I think. The thing is, the auction I linked above is the only mention of seiko part 161540 on the entire internet as far as I can tell, so I can't find that part from a more reputable seller.

 

Also, using those handy charts you linked, it seems that the seiko champion and 810 likely shares a pallet bridge with whatever my movement is, however I could not find a clear picture online so I am not 100% sure, tho in these ebay listings and the articles you linked it looks quite similar:

champion: https://www.ebay.com/itm/134402482777

810: https://www.ebay.com/itm/224056165239

however I could not find any interchange or parts sheet for either of these movements that had information on the pallet bridge.

 

On 12/18/2022 at 10:25 PM, JohnR725 said:

But I want you to look at the pallet fork bridge carefully and see if it looks at all the similar.

The lord marvel pallet bridge is just a tad different unfortunately.

[JohnFrum]

7 hours ago, pisswhistle said:

 

The only issue is, that website looks incredibly suspicious and I don't think I want to give it my credit card info... Has anyone seen this website before and can vouch for it?

 

 

Tenso Inc aka Buyee.  I’ve used them for Yahoo Japan auction and Mercari merchant. Paid via Paypal. They shipped via DHL. Customer service was responsive to enquiries. No problems using their service. 

 

 

 

[dadistic]

I've also used Buyee for  bidding on Yahoo Japan auctions. I usually bought several items and then consolidated shipping, otherwise is can get pricey. It's been several years since I've used Buyee, so charges may have changed. 

Cheers!

[gbyleveldt]

I’ve been using Buyee a lot the last year or so. Only once was there a case of a won item not arriving at their warehouse. They asked to wait 30 days, after which they refunded me that item. I assume they take it up with Yahoo Japan to claim their loss back. So not only is it convenient but it put my mind at ease that if something goes wrong they’ll make good on their end. 

[pisswhistle]

Thanks for the info everyone, you've put my mind at ease so I bought the part. I'll update this topic when it arrives and I've tested it