Pallet fork jewels, CousinsUK sizing unclear ....

[JohnR725]

23 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Just on a quick question John, a high amplitude of 300 + . What would be your thoughts with extra wear with that ?

 

What you're curious what if you take the quest for amplitude to the next perfection the next level the 300s you want to go to the loyalty of amplitude adjusters what would be the consequence?

The consequences would be exactly what I saw at work. -2135 Rolex watch it's been sitting next the timing machine for several weeks vacation asked why is this still here? All the paperwork indicated it was finished well almost completed servicing it was on the auto winder and it has just a minor problem maybe the customer wouldn't care.

So my observation was when I was winding it up I could feel when it hit the end in it was slipping on the breaking grease it seemed like a little more force that should. Then those golden magical 300° amplitude was trying a member of Ohio was? Might've been 311 Saudi outstanding with nets except and yes it hit 300+ only halfway into winding it and was really nice it really didn't go beyond the 300 I think 311 it was where it several that it might've been 331 I can't quite remember but a case it was magical except as a consequence

unfortunately our favorite YouTube channel it shows this has disappeared but what happens is with too much amplitude in this particular case the watches running 10 minutes a day fast. It's why Rolex and almost all the other watch companies 300 Max they went to safely away from bad things. Because one thing what happens is the balance will come along and whack the backside of the fork that's not good for the roller jewel but in this particular case the watches just run insanely fast.

Fortunately in the case of Rolex they anticipated this so a $40 mainspring has been ordered from eBay that's considered a weaker spring so it's an original Rolex spring that's just a little bit weaker to solve that problem. So yes you can go too high if you go too high it leads to timing consequences but who cares about timing consequences you achieved the 300s who cares at the customer be very angry that their precision chronometer grade Rolex watch is now running 10 minutes a day fast I wonder if that would be a problem?

 

[mikepilk]

2 minutes ago, JohnFrum said:

I saw the same thing with my newly acquired 1900 TM and the 7S26A I serviced. Ended up using a gain setting that agreed with the watchtuner phone app and keeping the same position of the stem against the microphone bracket to have the same before and after conditions. 

I have the Weishi 1000, without the gain setting. I try to get the balance as close to the metal clip as possible, or if cased, put the crown against the metal clip. I either get no signal, or the amplitude looks OK. I don't remember seeing any discrepancies. 

After a while you get enough experience to judge "good" amplitude just by looking at the balance/hairspring movements. 

[JohnFrum]

45 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

Like yours, the lock of one pallet jewel was too deep. At Nickelsilvers' suggestion, I pushed it in a bit (easy to do) - and I gained 45° amplitude to 275°. 

I came across the video above where circuit stripboard and a soldering iron is used as a pallet warmer. The adjacent strip serves to heat sink the other jewel and the holes accommodate the pivots. I now have a few dozen scrap 1104a movements so plan to try this on some forks once I obtain shellac from Cousins. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

 

What you're curious what if you take the quest for amplitude to the next perfection the next level the 300s you want to go to the loyalty of amplitude adjusters what would be the consequence?

The consequences would be exactly what I saw at work. -2135 Rolex watch it's been sitting next the timing machine for several weeks vacation asked why is this still here? All the paperwork indicated it was finished well almost completed servicing it was on the auto winder and it has just a minor problem maybe the customer wouldn't care.

So my observation was when I was winding it up I could feel when it hit the end in it was slipping on the breaking grease it seemed like a little more force that should. Then those golden magical 300° amplitude was trying a member of Ohio was? Might've been 311 Saudi outstanding with nets except and yes it hit 300+ only halfway into winding it and was really nice it really didn't go beyond the 300 I think 311 it was where it several that it might've been 331 I can't quite remember but a case it was magical except as a consequence

unfortunately our favorite YouTube channel it shows this has disappeared but what happens is with too much amplitude in this particular case the watches running 10 minutes a day fast. It's why Rolex and almost all the other watch companies 300 Max they went to safely away from bad things. Because one thing what happens is the balance will come along and whack the backside of the fork that's not good for the roller jewel but in this particular case the watches just run insanely fast.

Fortunately in the case of Rolex they anticipated this so a $40 mainspring has been ordered from eBay that's considered a weaker spring so it's an original Rolex spring that's just a little bit weaker to solve that problem. So yes you can go too high if you go too high it leads to timing consequences but who cares about timing consequences you achieved the 300s who cares at the customer be very angry that their precision chronometer grade Rolex watch is now running 10 minutes a day fast I wonder if that would be a problem?

 

Thanks John. You have brought another question up now though. I thought timing stayed fairly constant with most amplitude ranges ( isochronism ). My first question was more related to extra wear of a movement with high amplitudes. Like an engine that is run at high revolutions for extended periods. I was thinking if amplitude is kept to a more sensible range of 250 -270 wear to balance staff pivots would be reduced as they are travelling less distance ( less  rotational degree travel ) for each oscillation. I can see that power reserve may be reduced, but most people would wind a watch/put a watch on i would think once a day at the same time most days. In most cases a 30 hour power reserve would serve in most cases. Assuming a lower amplitude would lose certainly no more than a few hours of reserve. Or am i asking really silly questions? 

[JohnR725]

17 hours ago, VWatchie said:

I have learned the hard way that TMs should be taken with a big pinch of salt, at least the Chinese ones, and maybe even the expensive Swiss ones(!?).  I have had several examples where the amplitude has been shown wrong (always too low in comparison with reality). You have to get the gain setting on the TM right to get near the truth. I still remember being very disillusioned about an Omega cal. 268 until you suggested I'd take a slo-mo video of the balance which proved the amplitude was fine and the TM was off

 

16 hours ago, JohnFrum said:

7S26A I serviced. Ended up using a gain setting that agreed with the watchtuner phone app and keeping the same position of the stem against the microphone bracket to have the same before and after conditions. 

Typically with self-contained timing machines they do a pretty good job. The variety of apps for whatever tend to not do a good job. The key to all of this is getting a good clean signal into the timing machine.

For instance the Seiko mentioned above was that in its case? Getting a signals out of a watch case can be problematic at times. Seiko a lot of times has plastic movement ring is they don't transmit the sound well. Which is why you're supposed to place the crown against the where the sensor is on the timing machine. But not just Seiko cases I see a really heavy Rolex and other type watch cases they just don't transmit the sound well. We had a Seiko come in they get a regulation on it it looked horrible in the case out of the case it looked wonderful. That's what happens we can't get a good clean signal

in a classically the numeric display, the graphical display and your visual eyes of whatever your observing all should look similar. Then the timing machine is probably right. Typically was super low amplitude the timing machine looks at the wrong part of the waveform and gives you a really nice happy amplitude because reading the wrong part of the waveform. This actually comes up well for me quite often on the witschi at work because I'm doing vintage. Fortunately the witschi at work has in our oscilloscope mode and it shows where it's triggering from. So I can see whether it thinks it's triggering in the right place are not. Unfortunately with cheaper witschi machines or Chinese machines is no oscilloscope and we have no idea what the machine thinks it's triggering off of.

So the most important thing is is to get a good clean signal into your timing device. 

[JohnFrum]

10 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

For instance the Seiko mentioned above was that in its case?

…

So the most important thing is is to get a good clean signal into your timing device. 

In a movement holder, resting on its plastic spacer ring. I placed the stem against the adjustable metal bracket .

I have yet to remove a movement from an actual case even though I’m 5 months into the hobby. Practicing on old movements rather than watches for now. On my 4th movement, an 1104A, after two 7S26As and a 6497 Chinese clone. 
The 1104a is working after preliminary cleaning and reassembly so I will service it. I took another 1104A apart (I’ve got three dozen of them) to (successfully) replace the balance staff, repin the hairspring stud etc, and am currently mangling its hairspring as I attempt basic bend manipulation. Have a Chinese Horia clone so will practice adjusting and replacing jewels as well as more balance staff work. Also got a size 1 right handed Bergeon winder so will learn to rewind mainsprings as well. 
Slowly developing my skillset before tackling my intended project watches. 

Edited January 1, 2023 by JohnFrum

[ifibrin]

On 12/31/2022 at 8:00 PM, JohnR725 said:

 

What you're curious what if you take the quest for amplitude to the next perfection the next level the 300s you want to go to the loyalty of amplitude adjusters what would be the consequence?

The consequences would be exactly what I saw at work. -2135 Rolex watch it's been sitting next the timing machine for several weeks vacation asked why is this still here? All the paperwork indicated it was finished well almost completed servicing it was on the auto winder and it has just a minor problem maybe the customer wouldn't care.

So my observation was when I was winding it up I could feel when it hit the end in it was slipping on the breaking grease it seemed like a little more force that should. Then those golden magical 300° amplitude was trying a member of Ohio was? Might've been 311 Saudi outstanding with nets except and yes it hit 300+ only halfway into winding it and was really nice it really didn't go beyond the 300 I think 311 it was where it several that it might've been 331 I can't quite remember but a case it was magical except as a consequence

unfortunately our favorite YouTube channel it shows this has disappeared but what happens is with too much amplitude in this particular case the watches running 10 minutes a day fast. It's why Rolex and almost all the other watch companies 300 Max they went to safely away from bad things. Because one thing what happens is the balance will come along and whack the backside of the fork that's not good for the roller jewel but in this particular case the watches just run insanely fast.

Fortunately in the case of Rolex they anticipated this so a $40 mainspring has been ordered from eBay that's considered a weaker spring so it's an original Rolex spring that's just a little bit weaker to solve that problem. So yes you can go too high if you go too high it leads to timing consequences but who cares about timing consequences you achieved the 300s who cares at the customer be very angry that their precision chronometer grade Rolex watch is now running 10 minutes a day fast I wonder if that would be a problem?

 

would it be considered ok to reduce the amplitude by using hp1300 instead of 9010 for the balance wheel and escape wheel? Or would that cause other issues such as increased wear at the escape wheel and balance wheel?

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, ifibrin said:

would it be considered ok to reduce the amplitude by using hp1300 instead of 9010 for the balance wheel and escape wheel? Or would that cause other issues such as increased wear at the escape wheel and balance wheel?

Which watch are we talking about?

[ifibrin]

On 1/2/2023 at 12:17 PM, JohnR725 said:

Which watch are we talking about?

The watch you were referring to that had an excessive amplitude due to the mainspring being too strong.

I was wondering if you could reduce the amplitude by using hp1300 instead of 9010 for the balance wheel and escape wheel? Or would that cause other issues such as increased wear at the escape wheel and balance wheel?

On 12/31/2022 at 8:00 PM, JohnR725 said:

too much amplitude in this particular case the watches running 10 minutes a day fast. It's why Rolex and almost all the other watch companies 300 Max they went to safely away from bad things. Because one thing what happens is the balance will come along and whack the backside of the fork that's not good for the roller jewel but in this particular case the watches just run insanely fast.

Fortunately in the case of Rolex they anticipated this so a $40 mainspring has been ordered from eBay that's considered a weaker spring so it's an original Rolex spring that's just a little bit weaker to solve that problem.

 

Edited January 15, 2023 by ifibrin