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Trying to source bezel gasket for seiko case code 7s36-03HO


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I've been trying to do this myself because i've made a thread here about this before but yet again Boley which is the only resource that seems to work has given me the wrong part. I'm starting to wonder if even half the information on boley is accurate. I've now blown about 40 bucks on random gaskets that boley said were the correct one for the case but clearly aren't. There's the jules borel database which i have no idea how to work. No matter how common the movement or case is i just get a blank screen if i search it there. 

Can anybody help me find this damn gasket so i can finish this watch? ANd if you do find the correct part number can you tell me how on earth you found it?! I need to be able to do this independently but even sourcing just the most basic parts for recently produced cases is weirdly esoteric.

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Ok so i've now spent almost 60 dollars trying to find this part. I'm begging anybody here to help me. We got a lot of watch repair pros here. It seems like if a watch this new ends up on your bench there has to be a way to find a fricking sacrificial gasket for it? 

Every single resource i can think of has the incorrect part number for this damn thing.

Maybe a genric could work? It Might just be a nylon I gasket that's 36mm, .5mm thick, 1mm tall. It sounds standard but I can't find anything quite those dimentions in the us.

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7 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

We got a lot of watch repair pros here. It seems like if a watch this new ends up on your bench there has to be a way to find a fricking sacrificial gasket for it? 

Okay I know I'm being nitpicky here but which gasket? Back, crown, crystal probably not the crown So do I get To flip a coin for which one crystal or back? Then it would be nice to have a picture of the case and you have a picture of the old gasket?

One of the problems with asking the pros are we have resources that you don't. For instance I've pointed this out in the past but nobody seems to pay attention not all material houses are on line. Then even the online material houses do not necessarily list everything they have 100%. Cousins is probably the example of everything they have is 100% online because when you look at their history they went down that path a long time ago. But a lot of the material houses in the US and probably all over the world still physically exist and not everything is online or even online at all.

So for instance If I need something for work I typically Would email Debbie as her material house is not online. Or I can just telephone her and ask her and she'll look it up for me. Then because where I work is doing so much business she will mail at least once or twice a week or occasionally somebody will go downtown and pick up something of the Apsley have to have a right now.

So this is the problem with asking the pros we have resources if you do not. By the way where on the planet are you located?

 

 

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14 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Okay I know I'm being nitpicky here but which gasket? Back, crown, crystal probably not the crown So do I get To flip a coin for which one crystal or back? Then it would be nice to have a picture of the case and you have a picture of the old gasket?

One of the problems with asking the pros are we have resources that you don't. For instance I've pointed this out in the past but nobody seems to pay attention not all material houses are on line. Then even the online material houses do not necessarily list everything they have 100%. Cousins is probably the example of everything they have is 100% online because when you look at their history they went down that path a long time ago. But a lot of the material houses in the US and probably all over the world still physically exist and not everything is online or even online at all.

So for instance If I need something for work I typically Would email Debbie as her material house is not online. Or I can just telephone her and ask her and she'll look it up for me. Then because where I work is doing so much business she will mail at least once or twice a week or occasionally somebody will go downtown and pick up something of the Apsley have to have a right now.

So this is the problem with asking the pros we have resources if you do not. By the way where on the planet are you located?

 

 

I think this Debbie is definitely worth knowing, so Colin if you are paying attention,  see if you can get her phone number pass it on to me and i will charm the pants off her ahem er i mean parts of her that you need. My mission please 🙋‍♂️

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10 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I think this Debbie is definitely worth knowing, so Colin if you are paying attention,  see if you can get her phone number pass it on to me and i will charm the pants off her ahem er i mean parts of her that you need. My mission please

It wouldn't do you any good. Yes I know you would like her phone number because she purchases directly from Seiko she has a Seiko account. Although technically where I work we have a Seiko account I just don't have access to the Seiko database the last time I asked one of the wraps they said easy just login but nobody will give me the login information apparently I don't have any need to look up Seiko parts.

Now one of the other problems you run into with material houses are they will typically but not always only do business with people in the trade. Some of this is done for tax reasons. In other words if you purchase as the final user like I purchase a gala cleaning fluid I have to pay sales tax. If it's a watch parts that goes into a watch then whoever charges the customer clicks the sales tax and the material house does not collect it but they have to have paperwork to show that you have the proper business license to do that sort of thing. So basically in her case she will deal with wholesale only for watch parts but would sell you tools but I think typically she only deals with people in the state of Washington. Although I did ask nicely once and she did in order for somebody out of country who had his items shipped to the state of Oregon which doesn't collect sales tax and then it was shipped to his location

Then I suspect that even in the United Kingdom there have to be other material houses out there the problem is it comes back to as to whether or not they want to deal with nonprofessional people. Like I know the other material house we haven't towns enough she'll deal with anybody that walks through the door way out as long as are interested in watch stuff.

Then a note regarding?

On 12/3/2022 at 7:23 PM, Birbdad said:

There's the jules borel database which i have no idea how to work. No matter how common the movement or case is i just get a blank screen if i search it there. 

Okay because I was curious I've never actually done a case search here. So if you read the fine print it tells you how to do a case search. But there's a problem so once you grasp what the problem is you need the only do a partial case search and then you'll get the problem

http://cgi.julesborel.com/cgi-bin/matcgi2?ref=SEK+CS%237s36-03&submit=Search

So you'll notice when you do the partial search we do get a few case numbers just not the right extension part at the end that means it's not listed. It either means that super new and they haven't updated a database or there is the other itsy-bitsy problem would say,. Seiko and other watch distributors have marketing regions so if you buy a Seiko out of the USA it may not actually have any casing parts and all available in the US because it's not supposed to be in the US. Oh and then there's the other tiny problem also in the early days before everyone was online for the material house that Debbie owns I worked for her father plus occasionally did tasks like wrote a program to access the Seiko database. At that time the Seiko database was a really big file that had to be imported into a database program. Whenever I did that very long time ago casing parts there over 50,000 casing parts in the database. Bob was upset because each year they would drop old numbers in favor of the new numbers so this is the other problem of casing parts there are literally a hell of a lot of them. So when you're unhappy that you can't get some casing part it's because there are so darn many different casing parts

1 hour ago, Birbdad said:

Maybe a genric could work? It Might just be a nylon I gasket that's 36mm, .5mm thick, 1mm tall. It sounds standard but I can't find anything quite those dimentions in the us.

Okay I have improved my reading skills it's not a back gasket. Then no I don't always read the title I usually read the text of not in the text I don't always read the title so I can see okay in the title you want a Bezel gasket which I assume is not the same as a crystal gasket?

 

 

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8 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

It wouldn't do you any good. Yes I know you would like her phone number because she purchases directly from Seiko she has a Seiko account. Although technically where I work we have a Seiko account I just don't have access to the Seiko database the last time I asked one of the wraps they said easy just login but nobody will give me the login information apparently I don't have any need to look up Seiko parts.

Now one of the other problems you run into with material houses are they will typically but not always only do business with people in the trade. Some of this is done for tax reasons. In other words if you purchase as the final user like I purchase a gala cleaning fluid I have to pay sales tax. If it's a watch parts that goes into a watch then whoever charges the customer clicks the sales tax and the material house does not collect it but they have to have paperwork to show that you have the proper business license to do that sort of thing. So basically in her case she will deal with wholesale only for watch parts but would sell you tools but I think typically she only deals with people in the state of Washington. Although I did ask nicely once and she did in order for somebody out of country who had his items shipped to the state of Oregon which doesn't collect sales tax and then it was shipped to his location

Then I suspect that even in the United Kingdom there have to be other material houses out there the problem is it comes back to as to whether or not they want to deal with nonprofessional people. Like I know the other material house we haven't towns enough she'll deal with anybody that walks through the door way out as long as are interested in watch stuff.

Then a note regarding?

Okay because I was curious I've never actually done a case search here. So if you read the fine print it tells you how to do a case search. But there's a problem so once you grasp what the problem is you need the only do a partial case search and then you'll get the problem

http://cgi.julesborel.com/cgi-bin/matcgi2?ref=SEK+CS%237s36-03&submit=Search

So you'll notice when you do the partial search we do get a few case numbers just not the right extension part at the end that means it's not listed. It either means that super new and they haven't updated a database or there is the other itsy-bitsy problem would say,. Seiko and other watch distributors have marketing regions so if you buy a Seiko out of the USA it may not actually have any casing parts and all available in the US because it's not supposed to be in the US. Oh and then there's the other tiny problem also in the early days before everyone was online for the material house that Debbie owns I worked for her father plus occasionally did tasks like wrote a program to access the Seiko database. At that time the Seiko database was a really big file that had to be imported into a database program. Whenever I did that very long time ago casing parts there over 50,000 casing parts in the database. Bob was upset because each year they would drop old numbers in favor of the new numbers so this is the other problem of casing parts there are literally a hell of a lot of them. So when you're unhappy that you can't get some casing part it's because there are so darn many different casing parts

Okay I have improved my reading skills it's not a back gasket. Then no I don't always read the title I usually read the text of not in the text I don't always read the title so I can see okay in the title you want a Bezel gasket which I assume is not the same as a crystal gasket?

 

 

It sounds as though you and even enthusiasts have much better access to parts than we have here in the Uk John. We do have Gleaves which has been around for a long time and as far as i know are quite accommodating to us hobbyists. Washington state hmm, i have a cousin that married a lovely American girl, they live in Washington state. I must visit some day.

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3 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

even enthusiasts have much better access to parts than we have here in the Uk

That may or may not be true because every time I look on this group people are typically ordering from cousins even in the US.

The problem is material houses can do a nice job of hiding. I remember when I was in school I was looking in the phone book yes it was that long ago and the material houses weren't really listed anywhere there are listed by name. I think I asked somebody once and basically they felt you either knew they existed or you didn't know and they didn't want to do business with you. asically had to be in the trade and if you run a trade he would somehow know they existed and if you didn't swell too bad.

Then of course a lot of the US material houses if you go and read the fine print they will say reach out to us if you have a part problem

Unfortunately it's not a bezel gasket it's a shame we didn't need a crystal gasket too bad. Look at this link what does it say about ordering a gasket The second entry and says use this stock number it give us the case number and they'll look it up for you that's why things aren't online because they don't have it online you have to give them the information then they'll look it up.

https://www.ofrei.com/page1744.html

Oh and while you're on this webpage if you go to the bottom of the page notice what it says for stuff not listed on the website they give you a telephone number. Now if you want to be a good person when you call up make sure you have all the information of exactly what you need because material houses do not like you to waste their time. Plus it doesn't matter whether you're a hobbyist or professional the last time I saw Debbie she was complaining about somebody in the trade who kept ordering the same part claiming it was the wrong part confusion on the purchasers part irritating the material house. Definitely not good to irritate your material house.

Then there are not the only sites I'm looking at another US site looking at their fact section and it says have a parts request telephone or send a fax. Yes material houses still have fax machines at least some of them do.

So basically if you really want to part you have to do some work and not just assumed that it's on line. The real fun is if you have a physical material house you can go to. That's where like in this particular case you'd walk in with your case and set on the counter and say I need a and then it go and look up for you. Yes the good old days of physical material houses and they still exist there out there just have to go looking for them. Unfortunately quite a few are gone

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The Seiko code for the gasket you're looking for is 86622310 (according to Boley.de). Cousins has it in stock (8.15 pounds plus taxes and delivery), I don't know about other suppliers.

Edited by aac58
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17 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

That may or may not be true because every time I look on this group people are typically ordering from cousins even in the US.

The problem is material houses can do a nice job of hiding. I remember when I was in school I was looking in the phone book yes it was that long ago and the material houses weren't really listed anywhere there are listed by name. I think I asked somebody once and basically they felt you either knew they existed or you didn't know and they didn't want to do business with you. asically had to be in the trade and if you run a trade he would somehow know they existed and if you didn't swell too bad.

Then of course a lot of the US material houses if you go and read the fine print they will say reach out to us if you have a part problem

Unfortunately it's not a bezel gasket it's a shame we didn't need a crystal gasket too bad. Look at this link what does it say about ordering a gasket The second entry and says use this stock number it give us the case number and they'll look it up for you that's why things aren't online because they don't have it online you have to give them the information then they'll look it up.

https://www.ofrei.com/page1744.html

Oh and while you're on this webpage if you go to the bottom of the page notice what it says for stuff not listed on the website they give you a telephone number. Now if you want to be a good person when you call up make sure you have all the information of exactly what you need because material houses do not like you to waste their time. Plus it doesn't matter whether you're a hobbyist or professional the last time I saw Debbie she was complaining about somebody in the trade who kept ordering the same part claiming it was the wrong part confusion on the purchasers part irritating the material house. Definitely not good to irritate your material house.

Then there are not the only sites I'm looking at another US site looking at their fact section and it says have a parts request telephone or send a fax. Yes material houses still have fax machines at least some of them do.

So basically if you really want to part you have to do some work and not just assumed that it's on line. The real fun is if you have a physical material house you can go to. That's where like in this particular case you'd walk in with your case and set on the counter and say I need a and then it go and look up for you. Yes the good old days of physical material houses and they still exist there out there just have to go looking for them. Unfortunately quite a few are gone

A very similar story in other trades besides watch repair John. Things are becoming increasing difficult to get hold of. You can get things most of the time, there is just more work involved to aquire them. And i dont think its just down to the covid problem, it was happening well before that. Smaller companies dissappearing and bigger companies taking over and dictating.

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One of the problems and watch repair is inventory control basically. The material house I conveniently I've not mentioned by name I once worked there. I learned how to cut glass crystals. That meant I got to talk to Bob because it was his material house. When I first met him he was working for one of the other material houses I just can't remember which one Seattle used to have more than two that we have now and they used to be much much bigger. One of them largely occupied one of the buildings downtown but they also supplied the jewelry trade and had a heckuva lot inventory and has been around for almost 100 years. So after working for a variety of material houses he branched out on his own with the crystal cutting business. Recognizing the need for custom crystals. Then from there started his own material house. Which is now owned and run by his daughter.

So in my conversations one of the problems with watch material is there is a whole bunch of different systems to inventory the parts. So basically each material house ended up with possibly their own or a different system.  heard a story that one of the bigger material houses back East when it acquired other material houses it would put that material house in the warehouse but keep everything separate. Even though we might get excited about the cost of a watch part there isn't enough money and watch parts to integrate all the parts together. Then of course with all these separate sub material houses in the warehouse if you need a part somebody's going to have to go search for it is not going to build a search on line

Oh and then of course there is the other problem with watch repair the number of customers purchasing from the material house shrinking. It's why the material houses used to all be located downtown because typically that's where all the watch repair shops were. They're all located within a block or two of a very specific location. I even remember one watch shop when Debbie moved her location to another building he moved his shop so he could be next to her because then he didn't have to carry any inventory at all P needs a battery ideas ran over got about. But all those old-time watchmakers are retiring nobody's taking their places anymore the schools are not generating enough students.

 

 

 

41 minutes ago, aac58 said:

86622310

I notice is available on eBay as usually always have to check your pricing because it's always cheapest on eBay cousins is cheaper

https://www.ebay.com/itm/194600006517

Then there's the other strange problem. I was looking at the case number I saw another case number like associate with the crystal 7S36-03J0. Which does show up on the Jules Borel Listing but it doesn't list anything other than just a few parts.

https://boley.de/en/case-parts/seiko/37284.7s36-03h0?q=7S36-03h0&p=0&s=10

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3 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I think this Debbie is definitely worth knowing, so Colin if you are paying attention,  see if you can get her phone number pass it on to me and i will charm the pants off her ahem er i mean parts of her that you need. My mission please 🙋‍♂️

Hehe, i know what am i like. Morning Gert, its - 3 here in Yorkshire and I'm outside ripping fascia boards off a church. Again what am i like ?

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10 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Okay I know I'm being nitpicky here but which gasket? Back, crown, crystal probably not the crown So do I get To flip a coin for which one crystal or back? Then it would be nice to have a picture of the case and you have a picture of the old gasket?

Thanks for responding. I did say I'm looking for a bezel gasket in the title. And i'm in the US. Here's some pics of the now mangled gasket plus the inside and outside contours as they do look different. Not sure if it's just from deformation from the friction fitting or what however.
 gasket1.thumb.jpg.e83952a1ff93f4f940bfc45e02cd9eb0.jpg


 

Quote

not all material houses are on line.

I have been paying attention and I am aware. I've called two and they just gave me incorrect part numbers from other databases resulting in ordering the wrong part and wasting more money as the only two databases iv'e found with this case code list incorrect information for basically ALL the gaskets. I've ordered the wrong bezel gasket twice and the wrong crystal gasket twice now. I'm pretty sure if they can't find the case code in their own database they just look at boley or this one other site i can't remember offhand that list almost entirely incorrect part numbers for this case code.

 

9 hours ago, aac58 said:

The Seiko code for the gasket you're looking for is 86622310 (according to Boley.de). Cousins has it in stock (8.15 pounds plus taxes and delivery), I don't know about other suppliers.

That's wild, when i look up the case code it lists part number 86178750 which like the 3 compatible crystal gaskets it lists is not correct. I know this cuz it's sitting right in front of me haha. Googling that part number it does look like that fits a different case code that i couldn't find any information on compatibility even though the watches look very similar. This is probably the best lead so far. I will try ordering this part.

 

9 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Then there are not the only sites I'm looking at another US site looking at their fact section and it says have a parts request telephone or send a fax. Yes material houses still have fax machines at least some of them do.

Given the antiquated nature of their websites i'm surprised most of them aren't on telegraph still lol.



 

8 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Then there's the other strange problem. I was looking at the case number I saw another case number like associate with the crystal 7S36-03J0. Which does show up on the Jules Borel Listing but it doesn't list anything other than just a few parts.

https://boley.de/en/case-parts/seiko/37284.7s36-03h0?q=7S36-03h0&p=0&s=10

That's very weird, when i searched my case code even a partial i just got a blank screen. The only material house i'm aware of that i didn't call claims the bezel gasket for the 03j0 case is compatible with my case and it's in Ohio so I ordered two in case i screw one up again. 

I really hope this one fits and i super appreciate the help. I've definitely done work to find this goddamned thing, i've been trying to find it for weeks. It might sound like i'm just incompetent but trust me, if you're really new at this this is all insanely confusing. I've had to locate several parts that i could successfully locate so it's not like i just make a thread demanding others do the work for me. I genuinely could not find this goddamned thing.

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9 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

But all those old-time watchmakers are retiring nobody's taking their places anymore the schools are not generating enough students.

 

Maybe thats were we all come in John. If you and a few other pros here teach us all well enough we can fill that shortfall. Good idea yes/no ? We cant let the likes of swatch take over the world. The idea is still in my brain FRIENDS of the FORUM SOCIÈTE. I need to see that FFS  20 foot sign wrote on the side of a building before i die. 

52 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

Thanks for responding. I did say I'm looking for a bezel gasket in the title. And i'm in the US. Here's some pics of the now mangled gasket plus the inside and outside contours as they do look different. Not sure if it's just from deformation from the friction fitting or what however.
 gasket1.thumb.jpg.e83952a1ff93f4f940bfc45e02cd9eb0.jpg


 

I have been paying attention and I am aware. I've called two and they just gave me incorrect part numbers from other databases resulting in ordering the wrong part and wasting more money as the only two databases iv'e found with this case code list incorrect information for basically ALL the gaskets. I've ordered the wrong bezel gasket twice and the wrong crystal gasket twice now. I'm pretty sure if they can't find the case code in their own database they just look at boley or this one other site i can't remember offhand that list almost entirely incorrect part numbers for this case code.

 

That's wild, when i look up the case code it lists part number 86178750 which like the 3 compatible crystal gaskets it lists is not correct. I know this cuz it's sitting right in front of me haha. Googling that part number it does look like that fits a different case code that i couldn't find any information on compatibility even though the watches look very similar. This is probably the best lead so far. I will try ordering this part.

 

Given the antiquated nature of their websites i'm surprised most of them aren't on telegraph still lol.



 

That's very weird, when i searched my case code even a partial i just got a blank screen. The only material house i'm aware of that i didn't call claims the bezel gasket for the 03j0 case is compatible with my case and it's in Ohio so I ordered two in case i screw one up again. 

I really hope this one fits and i super appreciate the help. I've definitely done work to find this goddamned thing, i've been trying to find it for weeks. It might sound like i'm just incompetent but trust me, if you're really new at this this is all insanely confusing. I've had to locate several parts that i could successfully locate so it's not like i just make a thread demanding others do the work for me. I genuinely could not find this goddamned thing.

Hopefully it comes together for you Col veeery frustrating by the sound of it, i may just stick to repairing swiss after all.

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26 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Hopefully it comes together for you Col veeery frustrating by the sound of it, i may just stick to repairing swiss after all.

The mere fact that every gasket and crystal appears to be proprietary and just a tiny bit off in every dimension from any generic equivalent is insanely obnoxious.

At the same time i just found out i can buy their new GMT mechanical movement for only 50 bucks. i've always wanted a mechanical gmt but they're so damn expensive, now i can just build one for under 200 bucks out of the insane amount of aftermarket mod parts available everywhere. 

It's definitely a give and take being into seikos I'm finding. 

 

9 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

But all those old-time watchmakers are retiring nobody's taking their places anymore the schools are not generating enough students.

Well i'm not commenting on anybody here as I post in multiple watch repair spaces on the internet so I talk to a lot of frustrated new people who hit me up for advice (Most of the time i tell them i'm not qualified to give it even if my first two services were successful but there are basic things I can help with.) and all of them basically say the same thing which is a thing i've noticed as well. This hobby/discipline is bizarrely hostile to new people in general. I have a pretty diverse array of hobbies and I'm a professional artist so i'm in a LOT of artist spaces and hobby spaces with a lot of new artists showing up all the time and I would say the watch repair space is the most hostile to new people of anything i've ever been into. A lot of the reason these new people come to me for help is because i've done at least a couple successful services and repairs and i'll actually give them the time of day without admonishing them, telling them to just google it or forum search it (Of course they did that, it can be days of wading through hundreds of threads to MAYBE find correct info that could just be given in a matter of seconds.), being passive aggressive or patronizing or insulting to them. 

In all the other hobby and artist spaces i'm in people are warm and welcoming to newcomers and hang out in these spaces in part becuase they want to be helpful and they know how daunting it is to get into something new and struggle to find basic information because you don't even know enough yet to search out information you don't know.

After looking for ANY watch repair business in the state of texas i found that outside of a couple guys in houston who don't even do business with the general public there isn't any actual watch repair in the entire southern half of this entire state. All these jewelers i contacted excitedly asked me if I will do watch repair for them because so many people request it. I told him maybe in 10 years I'd be comfortable handling somebody else's precious watches.

I also saw a tour of the Sinn factory in germany where they said it takes 9 months to get one of their watches because they have so few watchmakers on staff and they literally can't even pay people to learn it and guarantee them a good paying job. I'm sortof not that surprised. Half the people I meet who just do basic seiko modding actually wanted to get into watch repair but gave up very fast because people were just assholes to them.

Edited by Birbdad
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27 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Maybe thats were we all come in John. If you and a few other pros here teach us all well enough we can fill that shortfall. Good idea yes/no ? We cant let the likes of swatch take over the world. The idea is still in my brain FRIENDS of the FORUM SOCIÈTE. I need to see that FFS  20 foot sign wrote on the side of a building before i die. 

The FFS group, I love that 🤣

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7 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

The mere fact that every gasket and crystal appears to be proprietary and just a tiny bit off in every dimension from any generic equivalent is insanely obnoxious.

At the same time i just found out i can buy their new GMT mechanical movement for only 50 bucks. i've always wanted a mechanical gmt but they're so damn expensive, now i can just build one for under 200 bucks out of the insane amount of aftermarket mod parts available everywhere. 

It's definitely a give and take being into seikos I'm finding. 

 

Well i'm not commenting on anybody here as I post in multiple watch repair spaces on the internet so I talk to a lot of frustrated new people who hit me up for advice (Most of the time i tell them i'm not qualified to give it even if my first two services were successful but there are basic things I can help with.) and all of them basically say the same thing which is a thing i've noticed as well. This hobby/discipline is bizarrely hostile to new people in general. I have a pretty diverse array of hobbies and I'm a professional artist so i'm in a LOT of artist spaces with a lot of new artists showing up all the time and I would say the watch repair space is the most hostile to new people of anything i've ever been into. A lot of the reason these new people come to me for help is because i've done at least a couple successful services and repairs and i'll actually give them the time of day without admonishing them, telling them to just google it or forum search it (Of course they did that, it can be days of wading through hundreds of threads to MAYBE find correct info that could just be given in a matter of seconds.), being passive aggressive or patronizing or insulting to them. 

After looking for ANY watch repair business in the state of texas i found that outside of a couple guys in houston who don't even do business with the general public there isn't any actual watch repair in the entire southern half of this entire state. All these jewelers i contacted excitedly asked me if I will do watch repair for them because so many people request it. I told him maybe in 10 years I'd be comfortable handling somebody else's precious watches.

I also saw a tour of the Sinn factory in germany where they said it takes 9 months to get one of their watches because they have so few watchmakers on staff and they literally can't even pay people to learn it and guarantee them a good paying job. I'm sortof not that surprised. Half the people I meet who just do basic seiko modding actually wanted to get into watch repair but gave up very fast because people were just assholes to them.

Eyerything i hear as well states that there is a massive shortage of people to repair watches.  But if the industry is so tight to not pay a fair wage thats hardly surprising. Does that mean more scope for independent watch repair ? Not unless part availability improves.

8 minutes ago, gbyleveldt said:

The FFS group, I love that 🤣

Its wasnt the worst logo that i could come up with, but the most likely that i thought i could get away with.  I dont want banning just yet, i have so much more to give 🤷‍♂️

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@Birbdad which watch repair groups have you visited that were hostile? I’ve found most places I visit, especially here, to be very helpful. 

That being said, many new comers in many hobbies do tend to ask similar questions all the time and being told to ‘go and search’ is because those questions have been asked before, or has been explained in great detail already by someone more competent. Unfortunately many times there’s no quick answer to a seemingly simple question when it comes to this hobby

I for one recommend doing Mark’s course to anyone looking to enter the hobby. But if you don’t want to commit financially yet, go and check out Alex Hamilton’s videos.

8 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:.

Its wasnt the worst logo that i could come up with, but the most likely that i thought i could get away with.  I dont want banning just yet, i have so much more to give 🤷‍♂️

And more give I trust you would!

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19 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

telling them to just google it or forum search it (Of course they did that, it can be days of wading through hundreds of threads to MAYBE find correct info that could just be given in a matter of seconds.), being passive aggressive or patronizing or insulting to them. 

I'm sure we dont have that here Col, not intentionally anyway. But i do see it as a way of learning having to search something out for yourself. Obviously there are times when you are completely stuck and the problem you've been having is a prime example. Really frustrating and even more so when its starting to waste money. I guess there is not always a simple answer and things that even the pros are not sure about. 

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It used to be that Seiko Australia (Oceania) would let you look up parts on their website, even though they didn't sell to the general public.  Not any more, though. I don't know why they changed this. Now they only have instructions and battery information, and a list of wholesalers in Australia. At least Seiko still supplies parts, but they do the typical distribution dance, Manufacturer -> Wholesaler -> Retailer -> End User / Hobbyist. 

And, believe it or not,  this field is much friendlier to hobbyists than it was seven or eight years ago. For instance, Jules Borel only sold to businesses, they would not sell to individuals,  and they would not let me have an account.  Eventually they changed, and started "retail" sales.  Lots of folks had to find a friendly soul that had a parts account and ask them to help out. 

Really, watchmaking as a hobby is a relatively new thing, and the only part of it that is maturing is the "modding" community. Seiko modding has come a long way in the last five years, with places like Crystal Times providing interesting parts to people who want to trick out their watch. 

I think that there are still a lot of people who don't think of watch repair or watchmaking as something that can be done at a hobby level. This comes from the belief that the skills needed really require formal training, and that most people who try this own their own are going to destroy a watch or two and then move on.  I read a rant not long ago from someone who was incensed at incompetent hands screwing up antique pocket watches, he was really upset.  He thought if these watches had been left to those who knew what they were doing, they would still be running.  Now they are gone. 

I would have loved to have had formal training, but that was just not in the cards. I had to try to self train. After eight years or so, I think I've made some progress, but I still think of myself as a "hack".   I'm glad that I was able to start out at a hobbyist level, and that it was at least possible to do so, if not easy. 

You know, I think I once compared Mark to Bob Ross (in a complementary way), but Bob Ross and his business partners were able to partner with a manufacturer that could create all of the materials and supplies necessary to back up his particular style of painting instruction.  

We've got the videos, but the rest? Not so much. 

Cheers!

 

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3 minutes ago, gbyleveldt said:

That being said, many new comers in many hobbies do tend to ask similar questions all the time and being told to ‘go and search’ is because those questions have been asked before, or has been explained in great detail already by someone more competent. Unfortunately many times there’s no quick answer to a seemingly simple question when it comes to this hobby

Yes we've had lengthy discussions were newbies feel unhappy which is why we actually have a safe zone for newbies to ask questions. But sometimes people won't even look at the newbies questions for fear of somehow upsetting a newbie. Supposedly at least the person who really wanted the newbie section was that newbies could work together share their ideas pool their resources and not have to deal with the evil experience people on the group. The problem is that the newbies don't have experience or knowledge to answer their own questions.

Then unfortunately a lot of newbie questions can be answered with a section of standard answers. But apparently newbies don't want that they want to have an individual answer for the same question that's been asked 50 times in the last month although I don't think I've ever seen that here. A lot of times newbies get very demanding on how the watch world works and it's not actually grasp how it works to the settled  Down and then start to behave appropriately for the discussion group. Yes contrary to popular belief learning watch repair is not easy and everybody gets frustrated. Bless everyone has parts issues I have watches currently on the bench or actually it's a small car clock needs parts no idea where were guy get them so it's going to sit there for a while. With angry customer calling from time to time wanting to know where the status of the clock is now there is something the hobbyists shouldn't have is angry customers bothering them.

1 hour ago, Birbdad said:

I have been paying attention and I am aware. I've called two and they just gave me incorrect part numbers from other databases resulting in ordering the wrong part and wasting more money as the only two databases iv'e found with this case code list incorrect information for basically ALL the gaskets. I've ordered the wrong bezel gasket twice and the wrong crystal gasket twice now. I'm pretty sure if they can't find the case code in their own database they just look at boley or this one other site i can't remember offhand that list almost entirely incorrect part numbers for this case code.

The problem with Seiko is is it an overseas Seiko or US Seiko? Then there's also the possibility that maybe the material houses don't work with Seiko.Then of course there is the other problem material houses are run by people just like us well hopefully knowledgeable people in the material business but not necessarily. Then they need numbers the same as we do so yes conceivably they're all using the same database which is what the problem is. So they don't have Seiko access their probably accessing the same thing we are online

Then I would be curious would you give me the wrong numbers please and are we still waiting for correct number for your case?

54 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

Well i'm not commenting on anybody here as I post in multiple watch repair spaces on the internet so I talk to a lot of frustrated new people who hit me up for advice (Most of the time i tell them i'm not qualified to give it even if my first two services were successful but there are basic things I can help with.) and all of them basically say the same thing which is a thing i've noticed as well. This hobby/discipline is bizarrely hostile to new people in general.

What hostile watchmakers? One of my friends Doug learning watch repair on his own I pointed out that we have a school yes Seattle has two schools we have a professional school and a school for hobbyists to learn watch repair in a friendly safe environment. I'll give you a link below and know don't even think of emailing and asking about online courses they don't do the. Not that people don't keep emailing and then I send them to Mark's course that is if I think they're serious and not pulling a scam because most of them are trying to scam in some way or another

now back to Doug one day at a nawcc  meeting He was explaining that is he was learning watch repair whatever he was looking at he  went downtown and asked the question and I resisted laughing hysterically because I knew what the outcome would be. So what was his question he walked into the  furnace watchmaker shop explained that he taught himself watch repair he offered them money if they would evaluate what he did and of course they all through them out. No that's not true of everybody if you walk into where I work and ask Sam's happy to sell you a practice movement and talk to you so it's not 100% but a lot of the old-time watchmakers are well very peculiar people.

48 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Eyerything i hear as well states that there is a massive shortage of people to repair watches.  But if the industry is so tight to not pay a fair wage thats hardly surprising. Does that mean more scope for independent watch repair ? Not unless part availability improves.

Amusingly that's something they try not to talk about at the school teaching professional watchmakers locally. Dave the instructor comments it basically well we can't compete with Microsoft. With so many tech companies like Microsoft that starting pay is $1 trillion an hour or whatever it is watch repair just can't compete. So yes the pay is a definite problem but

let's look at this a little bit differently what you think it should cost to get a watch serviced? Let's look at the Seiko in this discussion is anyone know how long it would take the taken apart clean it lubricate it put it back together case it up add in handling the paperwork because you're doing a job for customer you have to some paperwork possibly some billing how much time you think is spent to service the watch? How much an hour would you like to make look at your current pay and if you're running a business you have to charge more because you can't just collect your pay you have to pay for all that equipment you have the cleaning machine the timing machine etc. Then unless you're working retail we typically get the most money if your wholesale well usually that's 50% but not always. So in other words if you took a watch into a jewelry store and it  cost you $400 to get your watch serviced and you felt ripped off. The watchmaker only got $200  Of that. The worst-case example what is working downtown was think I can't quite remember they marked up the wholesale  it wasn't the typical twice it might have been four times I think that's what it was and in the cost of the repair was the same price at the person paid for the watch brand-new from their buddy at the wholesale house which was selling Seiko watches. And you know whose fault that was that was the greedy **BLEEP** watchmaker who nearly lost her Seiko service account. Yes in the early days independent watchmakers basically ran service center is for the various companies were now they have their own independent shops

You should have been at the Christmas party I was at last week a nawcc  local chapter Christmas party that had the various president of  marketing for a chain of local jewelry  stores. Talked about all the watch brands they have the trends and then I got to the end where they talked about the problem. A huge problem that she perceived and they're going to give out more scholarships now to encourage people to get in the watch repair. Not that they're already not trying to read the try to set up some of their own teaching I think in association with the school. Basically they're running scared of the lack of watchmakers means the watch makers are going to cut back even more as a guess. So I think she had a fantasy thought and their thought was more people servicing then hopefully more parts perhaps but she didn't ask you say that. So they want to take an active role in making sure there are enough watchmakers because I'm pretty sure there service center makes a lot of money she was giving numbers and they service hell of a lot of Rolex watches and if they couldn't get Rolex spare parts that would be a huge impact to the business. Unfortunately I have to wonder if they talk to the Swiss about these plans because I think the Swiss one to illuminate everybody who repairs watches. I don't think they care whether a hobbyist or a professional. It's why Rolex has a service center in Texas filled with unskilled labor that just does one little task. Like one person will disassemble watch and it goes in the cleaning machine another person will reassemble another person will lubricate and only if it fails some quality control what go to something that resembles a real watchmaker. Quite a savings not to have to pay skilled people or distribute spare parts all over the place.

1 hour ago, Birbdad said:

In all the other hobby and artist spaces i'm in people are warm and welcoming to newcomers and hang out in these spaces in part becuase they want to be helpful and they know how daunting it is to get into something new and struggle to find basic information because you don't even know enough yet to search out information you don't know.

Not sure this quite compares for instance if you go down to your local auto shop will they let you hang around in the shop? And yes I know you hate this example let's go to the hospital and hang around in the operating room to get a feel for becoming a doctor. A lot of the hobby and artist spaces are well-liked makers spaces they still exist out there yes they encourage people to come and visit but they're not a professional business trying to run and make money. It's kinda hard to do watch work and talk to newbies at the same time. Well it's hard to talk to anybody when you're doing watch work and then you get yelled at by Your boss For talking too damn much but I'm the skip over how I know about that one.

Now I give you a quest reach out to all those people who want to know if you do watch work and ask them how much they would pay you to do the watch work? In the early days I remember the jewelry stores were damn cheap cheaper the better. So basically the only way wholesale watch shops can function is out of people's houses preferably in the middle of nowhere where rent costs nothing.

Think about it this way you're a collector of watches you have hundreds of them occasionally need to be serviced and you spent so darn much money on those expensive watches you really want to pay somebody to service them? After all you get the oil changed in your car for how much shouldn't to watch repair costs something similar?.  Oh and the case you think I'm joking about this is another discussion group out there of collectors who think that? Will it used to be they thought of pocket watch repair I think was between 50 and $100 and a while back somebody was recommended and I think he was like 125 for pocket watch repair and they said he was expensive. So yes watch collectors are really cheap and don't want to pay watchmakers. So it's a really complicated situation of it just complicated and there's going to be no easy solutions Or answers and the parts availability is never going to change. Especially if you understand how parts come into existence anyway and how their distributed.

 

Yes hobby schools really exist but unfortunately you have to be within driving distance of Seattle.

http://www.norwestschoolofhorology.com/

Oh and is not just hobby school we have an Association it once was in AWCI chapter but we got annoyed with them and broke free. So meetings that are open to anybody. If you have an interest in watches and clocks and repair and you're within driving distance. 

http://www.norwestschoolofhorology.com/wwca/index.html

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

Yes we've had lengthy discussions were newbies feel unhappy which is why we actually have a safe zone for newbies to ask questions. But sometimes people won't even look at the newbies questions for fear of somehow upsetting a newbie. Supposedly at least the person who really wanted the newbie section was that newbies could work together share their ideas pool their resources and not have to deal with the evil experience people on the group. The problem is that the newbies don't have experience or knowledge to answer their own questions.

Then unfortunately a lot of newbie questions can be answered with a section of standard answers. But apparently newbies don't want that they want to have an individual answer for the same question that's been asked 50 times in the last month although I don't think I've ever seen that here. A lot of times newbies get very demanding on how the watch world works and it's not actually grasp how it works to the settled  Down and then start to behave appropriately for the discussion group. Yes contrary to popular belief learning watch repair is not easy and everybody gets frustrated. Bless everyone has parts issues I have watches currently on the bench or actually it's a small car clock needs parts no idea where were guy get them so it's going to sit there for a while. With angry customer calling from time to time wanting to know where the status of the clock is now there is something the hobbyists shouldn't have is angry customers bothering them.

The problem with Seiko is is it an overseas Seiko or US Seiko? Then there's also the possibility that maybe the material houses don't work with Seiko.Then of course there is the other problem material houses are run by people just like us well hopefully knowledgeable people in the material business but not necessarily. Then they need numbers the same as we do so yes conceivably they're all using the same database which is what the problem is. So they don't have Seiko access their probably accessing the same thing we are online

Then I would be curious would you give me the wrong numbers please and are we still waiting for correct number for your case?

What hostile watchmakers? One of my friends Doug learning watch repair on his own I pointed out that we have a school yes Seattle has two schools we have a professional school and a school for hobbyists to learn watch repair in a friendly safe environment. I'll give you a link below and know don't even think of emailing and asking about online courses they don't do the. Not that people don't keep emailing and then I send them to Mark's course that is if I think they're serious and not pulling a scam because most of them are trying to scam in some way or another

now back to Doug one day at a nawcc  meeting He was explaining that is he was learning watch repair whatever he was looking at he  went downtown and asked the question and I resisted laughing hysterically because I knew what the outcome would be. So what was his question he walked into the  furnace watchmaker shop explained that he taught himself watch repair he offered them money if they would evaluate what he did and of course they all through them out. No that's not true of everybody if you walk into where I work and ask Sam's happy to sell you a practice movement and talk to you so it's not 100% but a lot of the old-time watchmakers are well very peculiar people.

Amusingly that's something they try not to talk about at the school teaching professional watchmakers locally. Dave the instructor comments it basically well we can't compete with Microsoft. With so many tech companies like Microsoft that starting pay is $1 trillion an hour or whatever it is watch repair just can't compete. So yes the pay is a definite problem but

let's look at this a little bit differently what you think it should cost to get a watch serviced? Let's look at the Seiko in this discussion is anyone know how long it would take the taken apart clean it lubricate it put it back together case it up add in handling the paperwork because you're doing a job for customer you have to some paperwork possibly some billing how much time you think is spent to service the watch? How much an hour would you like to make look at your current pay and if you're running a business you have to charge more because you can't just collect your pay you have to pay for all that equipment you have the cleaning machine the timing machine etc. Then unless you're working retail we typically get the most money if your wholesale well usually that's 50% but not always. So in other words if you took a watch into a jewelry store and it  cost you $400 to get your watch serviced and you felt ripped off. The watchmaker only got $200  Of that. The worst-case example what is working downtown was think I can't quite remember they marked up the wholesale  it wasn't the typical twice it might have been four times I think that's what it was and in the cost of the repair was the same price at the person paid for the watch brand-new from their buddy at the wholesale house which was selling Seiko watches. And you know whose fault that was that was the greedy **BLEEP** watchmaker who nearly lost her Seiko service account. Yes in the early days independent watchmakers basically ran service center is for the various companies were now they have their own independent shops

You should have been at the Christmas party I was at last week a nawcc  local chapter Christmas party that had the various president of  marketing for a chain of local jewelry  stores. Talked about all the watch brands they have the trends and then I got to the end where they talked about the problem. A huge problem that she perceived and they're going to give out more scholarships now to encourage people to get in the watch repair. Not that they're already not trying to read the try to set up some of their own teaching I think in association with the school. Basically they're running scared of the lack of watchmakers means the watch makers are going to cut back even more as a guess. So I think she had a fantasy thought and their thought was more people servicing then hopefully more parts perhaps but she didn't ask you say that. So they want to take an active role in making sure there are enough watchmakers because I'm pretty sure there service center makes a lot of money she was giving numbers and they service hell of a lot of Rolex watches and if they couldn't get Rolex spare parts that would be a huge impact to the business. Unfortunately I have to wonder if they talk to the Swiss about these plans because I think the Swiss one to illuminate everybody who repairs watches. I don't think they care whether a hobbyist or a professional. It's why Rolex has a service center in Texas filled with unskilled labor that just does one little task. Like one person will disassemble watch and it goes in the cleaning machine another person will reassemble another person will lubricate and only if it fails some quality control what go to something that resembles a real watchmaker. Quite a savings not to have to pay skilled people or distribute spare parts all over the place.

Not sure this quite compares for instance if you go down to your local auto shop will they let you hang around in the shop? And yes I know you hate this example let's go to the hospital and hang around in the operating room to get a feel for becoming a doctor. A lot of the hobby and artist spaces are well-liked makers spaces they still exist out there yes they encourage people to come and visit but they're not a professional business trying to run and make money. It's kinda hard to do watch work and talk to newbies at the same time. Well it's hard to talk to anybody when you're doing watch work and then you get yelled at by Your boss For talking too damn much but I'm the skip over how I know about that one.

Now I give you a quest reach out to all those people who want to know if you do watch work and ask them how much they would pay you to do the watch work? In the early days I remember the jewelry stores were damn cheap cheaper the better. So basically the only way wholesale watch shops can function is out of people's houses preferably in the middle of nowhere where rent costs nothing.

Think about it this way you're a collector of watches you have hundreds of them occasionally need to be serviced and you spent so darn much money on those expensive watches you really want to pay somebody to service them? After all you get the oil changed in your car for how much shouldn't to watch repair costs something similar?.  Oh and the case you think I'm joking about this is another discussion group out there of collectors who think that? Will it used to be they thought of pocket watch repair I think was between 50 and $100 and a while back somebody was recommended and I think he was like 125 for pocket watch repair and they said he was expensive. So yes watch collectors are really cheap and don't want to pay watchmakers. So it's a really complicated situation of it just complicated and there's going to be no easy solutions Or answers and the parts availability is never going to change. Especially if you understand how parts come into existence anyway and how their distributed.

 

Yes hobby schools really exist but unfortunately you have to be within driving distance of Seattle.

http://www.norwestschoolofhorology.com/

Oh and is not just hobby school we have an Association it once was in AWCI chapter but we got annoyed with them and broke free. So meetings that are open to anybody. If you have an interest in watches and clocks and repair and you're within driving distance. 

http://www.norwestschoolofhorology.com/wwca/index.html

 

 

 

I wonder if this is your longest post ever John. Well we all appreciate you here and would be lost without you. Your boss sounds like an a hole. You have my sympathy.

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@JohnR725I live in a “3rd world” country (South Africa) and even here you can’t make a middle class living charging $120 to service a watch. I make many times that spending that same amount of time in my day job.

But quote the average someone $200 to service their inherited vintage Omega (that stopped working 20 years ago) and you’re told you’re effing mad. This is why watchmaking is dead as a profession in modern times; everyone wants that cool mechanical watch, no one considers what it costs to maintain it. A wrist watch is no longer an essential tool, it’s novelty jewellery.

So I do it as a hobby, a make a few videos and I fix broken things. If this hobby can make a little money to at least contribute to its vast expenses then that’s a bonus. I have many other hobbies that are just money pits, so there’s at least that.

Speaking of making videos: there’s a lot of criticism being levelled at YouTube watchmakers, either because they don’t show enough detail, or that they talk too much, or that they’re hacks, or whatever other negative thing you can imagine. But these YouTube watchmakers have done more to expose watchmaking to the average Joe than what any of the professional watchmaking institutions have ever done. Professional watchmakers scoff at these “hacks” in their comment sections but fail to see how these YouTubers create interest in the average Joe and turn them into enthusiasts.

Anyway, enough rambling from me…

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4 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I wonder if this is your longest post ever

If you think this is long you should look at some of the emails I do.

3 hours ago, gbyleveldt said:

But quote the average someone $200 to service their inherited vintage Omega (that stopped working 20 years ago) and you’re told you’re effing mad. This is why watchmaking is dead as a profession in modern times; everyone wants that cool mechanical watch, no one considers what it costs to maintain it. A wrist watch is no longer an essential tool, it’s novelty jewellery.

Yes that's the problem with watch repair people are afraid to charge for the service. That's what I just fine so amusing with a lot of online repair places the prices are so insanely low and it does make me wonder how they make any money at all. But you get into the specialty stores are the high-end jewelry stores people will still spend money to repair their watches. Just not everybody wants to pay money to repair the watches.

 

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19 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Yes we've had lengthy discussions were newbies feel unhappy which is

Not sure this quite compares for instance if you go down to your local auto shop will they let you hang around in the shop?

 

I can assure you if you go to almost any mechanics space on the internet, forum or subreddit or whatever and you want to get into working on cars people are generally very helpful and welcoming and are excited new people are getting interested in working on their own cars. I didn't refer to actual professional places of business.

19 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I'm sure we dont have that here Col, not intentionally anyway.

Quite a few of them were referring to here. No specific people though.

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4 hours ago, Birbdad said:

I can assure you if you go to almost any mechanics space on the internet, forum or subreddit or whatever and you want to get into working on cars people are generally very helpful and welcoming and are excited new people are getting interested in working on their own cars. I didn't refer to actual professional places of business.

Quite a few of them were referring to here. No specific people though.

? Quite a few of who Col. Do you mean previous members ? Maybe there were problems at one time, it happens in many forums. Members aren't vetted. And comments can be misunderstood. There will always be a few that like to cause new members a problem. Just had one myself on a facebook group this evening he wanted to play games so i played along, he ended up making himself look foolish to anyone reading. What can you do , forget it and move on i say. 

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