English fusee with Geneva stopwork?

[Bill241]

Here is a new acquisition, bought cheaply on Ebay for its fusee chain or as a repair project. It turned up fully wound and barely willing to tick.
 

Outwardly, this looks like a common English full plate fusee movement, probably quite a late one. However, I noticed there is no stop-iron on the fusee. I took the dial off and found this. The fusee has Geneva stop-work! I’ve never encountered this set up on this type of movement, and wonder how the proceed when I take the watch apart. 
 

I know from working on watches with such stop work (attached to the barrel) that the arbor is stopped after exactly four revolutions. 
 

Has anyone worked on one of these before? I am thinking there will be some trial and error to make sure the stop work engages before the chain detaches from the barrel… 

 

[oldhippy]

Can you post a photo of the top plate please. 

[nickelsilver]

Wow, haven't seen that. I always thought how cool it was that a fusee piece didn't need stopworks (and also automatically you have power reserve indication)

You'll need to see that the stop finger is oriented correctly with the fusee at the stop point, i.e that the chain is pulling at around a 90 angle to the line of centers with the barrel (more or less, a bit less maybe) at the stop point. Then, with the barrel wrapped with chain, you can set the pre-tension on the barrel with the square on the barrel ratchet, the blue one, generally speaking around 3/4 to 1 turn. It's easier said than done, as with many things regarding watchmaking. Keeping the chain from falling off the barrel is a real chore. When I do marine chronometers I usually wrap the chain on the fusee, then wind it up on the barrel with the click out, wind up on the barrel to the stop point, 3/4 more (winding up spring now), then engage click..  You'll have to consider the position of the hook on the barrel as well, though there's usually more leeway there. A quarter to half wrap is good.

Intersting watch, agree with OH pics of other side and in general would be great.

 

Edited December 4, 2022 by nickelsilver

[KarlvonKoln]

That certainly is unique.  I wonder why the maker would couple stop works with a movement that already had a fusee?  Isn't that a bit like wearing a belt and suspenders at the same time?

[Bill241]

10 hours ago, oldhippy said:

Can you post a photo of the top plate please. 

Certainly! 
 

It’s a large movement, and the rather dull plating and basic decoration on the balance cock makes me think this dates from the 1890s to 1914 when these would have seemed a bit old-hat. So, the cynic in me thinks the stopwork was perhaps less costly to make and more reliable than the traditional stop-iron and spring. 
 

That said, there is always something new to learn about these watches. 

[oldhippy]

I would remove the balance and put it to one side, no point in damaging it. Remove the Geneva stop-work. I expect you will need to put the movement back in its case for the winding to work. You will most likely need to loosen the screw that hols the click just a tiny bit, when you wind hold on to the button you need to let it slip a little when you move the click away from the wheel letting it down until all the power is off. What ever you do you must never twist the chain. If you need help in how to put it all back just ask these watches with a fusee can be little buggers if its your first one. No name listed in any of my books. I would say middle to late 1900

[Bill241]

So, I took the movement apart over the weekend and it is indeed an unusual fusee, showing some Swiss influences in the design of the escapement (there are even pallet inspection holes in the pillar plate). Note the channel cut into the back plate to allow the fusee chain to pass through. 

To my eyes, it was an attempt to make fusee watches (to meet whatever demand remained at the time) using machinery and to make the construction as straightforward as possible. The style of movement looks like an Erhardt (Birmingham) or Lancashire Watch Co. I doubt many were made! 
 

[oldhippy]

Well done in getting it apart. What you mentioned is quite common. 

[Bill241]

It was quite straightforward, much like a Rotherhams going barrel movement of the same period. Even the stop-work gave no trouble. 
 

I’m still curious about this fusee and why a manufacturer chose to modernise an otherwise very obsolete type of movement. I remember my first key wound pocket watch was a 1901 JG Graves with a silver case. That had a Lancashire Watch Co movement with a false fusee- I gather it was a feature to reassure buyers that a watch wound counter-clockwise was of English manufacture!