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Absolutely baffled by setting issue in 7s26...


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So i've got this movement working, and everything seems to be fine but I was baffled by once i put the pallet fork in i can no longer rotate the crown in the 3rd/time setting position. After multiple disassembles i concluded this issue starts once I put the pallet fork back in and realized that when the crown is out in the 3rd position that turning it is rotating EVERYHING including the entire power train of wheels and what's stopping it is the pallet fork as it's rotating the escape wheel. I thought i was really getting to know this movement inside and out but I'm utterly baffled by this. I've taken it apart down to the keyless works to examine them, they seem to be operating as normal, all the wheels spin freely without the pallet fork in, the calandar and date setting functions work fine, the watch runs fine  but I just can't set it. 

I feel like there's something really obvious nd stupid that i'm missing but can't for the life of me figurre out how this is engaging with the power train...

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2 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

It sounds like the cannon pinion is too tight

I just had pulled it off when you posted this and realized it. 

I also remembered taking apart this movement was the first thing i did and i realized the chinese garbage cannon pinion remover i bought didnt' work so i just removed it with tweezers. I must have deformed it or bent it or something.thankfully i got some spares! Will report back.

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2 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

I just had pulled it off when you posted this and realized it. 

I also remembered taking apart this movement was the first thing i did and i realized the chinese garbage cannon pinion remover i bought didnt' work so i just removed it with tweezers. I must have deformed it or bent it or something.thankfully i got some spares! Will report back.

I remove then with tweezers and never had any problems - just make sure you pull straight. You would have to hold them really tight to cause a problem

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15 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

I remove then with tweezers and never had any problems - just make sure you pull straight. You would have to hold them really tight to cause a problem

inspecting it i really can't see anything wrong with it. It did seem hard to get on and it didn't snap into place, it sorta mushed into place. I was such a rookie i probably did something to screw it up

 

 

Edited by Birbdad
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22 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

With the cannon pinion removed, does the clutch wheel turn the minute wheel easily, and does the centre wheel rotate easily? 

You need some binding on the centre wheel, just not too much.

I have the thing almost totally disassembled so not sure what stage you're referring to.

When i ahve the power train totaly assembled all the power train wheels move perfectly best i can tell.

The minute wheel is moved easily by the clutch wheel with the cannon pinion removed.

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4 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

If the minute wheel is easily moved by the clutch wheel, and the centre wheel is easily turned, then it can only be the cannon pinion binding. 

Sooo wouldn't that pretty much indicate the problems is the center wheel then? I've tried two cannon pinions and both bind with it.

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I can't think what you could have done to the centre wheel to make the cannon pinions stick.  It would be worth having a close look at it.

Is the jewel in the Center Wheel Bridge OK? You haven't moved it when pushing the cannon pinion on ?

image.png.eb3c107e149050514f1761a138dfd8bd.png

Edited by mikepilk
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2 hours ago, mikepilk said:

I can't think what you could have done to the centre wheel to make the cannon pinions stick.  It would be worth having a close look at it.

Is the jewel in the Center Wheel Bridge OK? You haven't moved it when pushing the cannon pinion on ?

image.png.eb3c107e149050514f1761a138dfd8bd.png

It's hard to tell but it looks like the part of it the cannon pinion would go around might be slightly bent, that might be pushing it into one side inside of the cannon pinion which i would think would cause the binding? Again it's really hard to tell. I wish i had a good pin vice and i could give it a spin but i don't. 

I think the jewel is fine. I can't really see anything that would look off about it.

 

Edited by Birbdad
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It looks like it might not be the cannon pinion. Sounds like you have something else wrong) (e.g. a screw poking through where it shouldn't )

Are you are testing with the pawl lever removed? And if not, are you sure it's the right way round?

image.png.1eda6162454fe890b0ec9e3787a167e1.png

Edited by mikepilk
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7 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

It looks like it might not be the cannon pinion. Sounds like you have something else wrong) (e.g. a screw poking through where it shouldn't )

Are you are testing with the pawl lever removed? And if not, are you sure it's the right way round?

image.png.1eda6162454fe890b0ec9e3787a167e1.png

I've definitely triple checked my screws (First time i put the thing together i did have an incorrect screw that was touching the bottom of the barrel so disassembled and made sure i got that right.). 
Pawl lever is attached but it is not engaged on anything. I don't put the second reduction wheel on till the very end because i want to be able to wind the movement with a screwdriver.

It can't be the cannon pinion i'd think because i've tried a spare from a donor movement...

Edited by Birbdad
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I was thinking that if the pawl lever was the wrong way round, it could lock it up.

I would start with just the mainplate and check the keyless is working correctly. Then add a wheel at a time, and make sure each spins freely, has correct end shake, and meshes correctly with the next pinion.  Then add the barrel and bridge.

Check the end shake on the barrel, and for wear in the arbor hole in the bridge - this is often a problem.

Are you able to post pics ?

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18 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

I was thinking that if the pawl lever was the wrong way round, it could lock it up.

I would start with just the mainplate and check the keyless is working correctly. Then add a wheel at a time, and make sure each spins freely, has correct end shake, and meshes correctly with the next pinion.  Then add the barrel and bridge.

Check the end shake on the barrel, and for wear in the arbor hole in the bridge - this is often a problem.

Are you able to post pics ?

I've just done all this, this is a not very old movement, nothing is really worn, all the wheels spin free, i've built and rebuilt the train a bunch of timees and the keyless works is great. Everything functions exactly how you would expect till i put the cannon pinion on. The cannon pinion simply cannot rotate freely of the center wheel, they are basically stuck as one unit and i'm not sure why, I tried spinning the center wheel aorund to see if it was bent or somethin gand it seemed ok.

Exactly what happening is that if i try to set it the minute wheel engages the cannon pinion but the whole thing is stuck because the cannon pinion is transfering power to the center wheel which is transfering power to the power train which is being stopped by the pallet fork. 

I'm stumped. Iirc the nh35 movement has the same center wheel bridge and center wheel as the 7s26c so i might try swapping both of them out. the cannon pinion is binding HARD to the center wheel for some reason so it feels like it's gotta be one of those two things.

And i can take pictures, crappy ones. What would you want a picture of? I"m about to go to bed but i can take some when i get up.

Edited by Birbdad
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Ok this is driving me nuts. @gbyleveldt @Neverenoughwatches 
So this video was shot with a brand new cannon pinion and brand new center wheel from an nh35 movement and it's still doing it. I've now tried this with 3 cannon pinions and 2 center wheels and all exhibit the same behavior.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/w6cfhda6jy7ljdv/VID_20221128_234122~2.mp4?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/txaf6mn9tuqwvws/VID_20221128_233958~2.mp4?dl=0

I can't even begin to imagine what would cause this. I might not recognize a bad jewel but i can't see anything wrong with the center wheel bridge or the center jewel of the main plate. I've compared both to other donor bridges and plates and they look the same.

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Perhaps I'm missing something, but you are just trying to use the time setting function right?  If so, you need to get your pallet fork in place to stop the wheel train from free spinning.  In the first video of the two you just posted it is not installed.  The wheels will spin if the pallet fork is not installed.  Secondly, on the dial side, I'd suggest at least installing the date jumper/cover plate that acts as the cover for the minute wheel.  You just want to make sure it isn't riding upwards while your turning the crown, and not engaging with the cannon pinion.  Since you've swapped out the center wheel and cannon pinion multiple times already.  Can you just just take the watch at the state it is in from the first video, install the pallet fork & bridge on the rear side, and screw down the date jumper/cover plate on the dial side, then give it a test. Make sure you lubricate the center wheel before installing your cannon pinion.  I like to use a grease, but I believe Seiko calls for an oil.  There's only so many things it can be, and it sure looks to me that the lack of the pallet fork installed in the first video is the culprit.  

Edited by thor447
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51 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

In your second video, is the pallet fork and balance in place?

 

6 minutes ago, thor447 said:

Perhaps I'm missing something, but you are just trying to use the time setting function right?  If so, you need to get your pallet fork in place to stop the wheel train from free spinning.  In the first video of the two you just posted it is not installed.  The wheels will spin if the pallet fork is not installed.  Secondly, on the dial side, I'd suggest at least installing the date jumper/cover plate that acts as the cover for the minute wheel.  You just want to make sure it isn't riding upwards while your turning the crown, and not engaging with the cannon pinion.  Since you've swapped out the center wheel and cannon pinion multiple times already.  Can you just just take the watch at the state it is in from the first video, install the pallet fork & bridge on the rear side, and screw down the date jumper/cover plate on the dial side, then give it a test.  There's only so many things it can be, and it sure looks to me that the lack of the pallet fork installed in the first video is the culprit.  

Yeah you're both right. I didn't know there was that much friction between them! Certainly not enough to drive the entire power train. that was a rookie mistake because i wasn't really sure how the cannon pinion actually interacted with the center wheel.

So it looks like my instinct was correct. My center wheel post was slightly bent causing the binding on the cannon pinion that was so bad it would have broken my pallet fork if i had forced it.

Swapped it out with a new cannon pinion and center wheel and installed the pallet fork and everytrhing is working as expected.     

Edited by Birbdad
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12 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

 

Yeah you're both right. I didn't know there was that much friction between them! Certainly not enough to drive the entire power train. that was a rookie mistake because i wasn't really sure how the cannon pinion actually interacted with the center wheel.

So it looks like my instinct was correct. My center wheel post was slightly bent causing the binding on the cannon pinion that was so bad it would have broken my pallet fork if i had forced it.

Swapped it out with a new cannon pinion and center wheel and installed the pallet fork and everytrhing is working as expected.     

Excellent.  Glad to year you got it sorted out.  Hopefully the rest of it is smooth sailing for you.  That movement is giving you quite the education, which is a good thing!  I started working on an old DuFonte tonight, which looked great on eBay but has all sorts of issues once I opened it up.  It has capped escape wheel jewels, missing both upper and lower caps caps (but the screws are still in the main plate!), missing dial side chaton, cap jewel, and spring for the balance, and a broken setting lever spring.  The watch was 'running' according to their post.  I still haven't figured out if people intentionally do this, or if it is just someone who wanted to try their hand at rebuilding a watch, and after they had a few parts spring away they gave up and put up a misleading ad on eBay.  Needless to say, I am starting the search for a donor ST 96-4.   haha

 

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4 minutes ago, thor447 said:

Excellent.  Glad to year you got it sorted out.  Hopefully the rest of it is smooth sailing for you.  That movement is giving you quite the education, which is a good thing!  I started working on an old DuFonte tonight, which looked great on eBay but has all sorts of issues once I opened it up.  It has capped escape wheel jewels, missing both upper and lower caps caps (but the screws are still in the main plate!), missing dial side chaton, cap jewel, and spring for the balance, and a broken setting lever spring.  The watch was 'running' according to their post.  I still haven't figured out if people intentionally do this, or if it is just someone who wanted to try their hand at rebuilding a watch, and after they had a few parts spring away they gave up and put up a misleading ad on eBay.  Needless to say, I am starting the search for a donor ST 96-4.   haha

 

Yeah, people begged to not jump into the deep end with 7s26 as my first watch but i'm glad i did even though it was torture at times. ANd this is smooth sailing for sure. 
 
Not sure if you saw but this is actually my second  7s26. I just finished my first ever repair and service the other day and it came out amazing! Here's teh before and after pic. ANd that's rough about your project watch. I got a BEAUTIFUL vintage seiko 7006 just in gorgeous condition, i haven't opened it up yet but it doesn't run and i'm praying the inside doesn't show any surprises. I did pick up a donor movement in advance that barely runs but that will be my first true project watch. 
 
 service.thumb.jpg.c6bf9362e4a6a2a76140ce074bdfbff4.jpg

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I couldn't see anything wrong in your videos - it all looks to be working OK

Were you just mis-understanding how the cannon pinion works ?
Without the pallet fork in, there is enough friction between the cannon pinion and hour wheel to turn the whole gear train. With the fork in, the gear train is effectively locked, and the cannon pinion should slip on the hour wheel to allow hand setting.

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5 hours ago, thor447 said:

missing dial side chaton, cap jewel, and spring for the balance, and a broken setting lever spring.  The watch was 'running' according to their post. 

🤔 that must be those new invisible replacement parts that are going around. I just cant see how they can work myself. 🤦‍♂️

5 hours ago, Birbdad said:

people begged to not jump into the deep end with 7s26 as my first watch but i'm glad i did.

"Who dares, wins Rodney" Cushty sunshine 👍

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