Ruby Neutro Shock setting on AS 5206 movement

[ManSkirtBrew]

The only thing I've been able to find on this setting is this thread. There was so much crud packed into the bottom of the setting, I had no choice but to remove it for cleaning.

Taking @Nucejoe's advice, I carefully bent the prongs to get the cap and hole jewels out, which went without incident.

But when I put them back in, there's no way to bend the prongs back enough to put spring pressure on the cap jewel, and it just kind of wiggles around in there.

Before I go and ruin it, anyone have more experience with this, and what I should do next? I thought about trying to get the whole ring with prongs out, but since it's a full circle, that seems...tricky.

[Nucejoe]

3 hours ago, ManSkirtBrew said:

when I put them back in, there's no way to bend the prongs back enough to put spring pressure on the cap jewel, 

 You have inevitably deformed the prong  ie;  concaved ( from top view) as you bent the prong. 

Reform them back to streight or ( to convex from top view )  before bending back on the cap stones.

I know ,,,  easier said than done.

Good luck.

 

 

[JohnR725]

Not the answer you're going to want to hear but not all jewel assemblies are meant to come up apart. I would be very concerned if I had to bend up tabs as getting them back down would be problematic.

Also it's of concern when I look at a variety of sources of parts for this movement there is nothing that resembles a balance The jewel assembly. There's all sorts of other replacement things for the watch but nothing for the balance jewel either as a separate component assembled or anything set must be part of the balance bridge and I don't even see that in the parts list. It's not a good sign if nobody lists a replacement part

[Nucejoe]

 These prongs are not made of spring material so best to clean the jewels  in situ.

They are not hopelessly irrepalcable either, guess must have been an improvement to rub- in jewels.

I have replaced few broken jewels/ caps with success. 

Rgds

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

10 hours ago, ManSkirtBrew said:

The only thing I've been able to find on this setting is this thread. There was so much crud packed into the bottom of the setting, I had no choice but to remove it for cleaning.

Taking @Nucejoe's advice, I carefully bent the prongs to get the cap and hole jewels out, which went without incident.

But when I put them back in, there's no way to bend the prongs back enough to put spring pressure on the cap jewel, and it just kind of wiggles around in there.

Before I go and ruin it, anyone have more experience with this, and what I should do next? I thought about trying to get the whole ring with prongs out, but since it's a full circle, that seems...tricky.

What are we looking at MSB. Can we see a photo of the spring please mate.

4 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

I would be very concerned if I had to bend up tabs as getting them back down would be problematic.

Thats also something i would think twice about with a shock spring.  A spring's shape once past its deformation recovery point might never be the same. Some gentle persuasion might be called for. How is your future mum's Rolex coming on MSB, waiting for parts or all fixed up and running matey.

[ManSkirtBrew]

Thanks, everyone. Your feelings echo mine, and I really didn't want to take the cap jewel out, but there was so much gunk packed in from the other side there was no cleaning it out.

Either way, here I am. What would you do if you were me? How were they installed in the first place?

@Neverenoughwatches, here's a photo from that thread I linked. This is exactly what I'm looking at.

4 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

How is your future mum's Rolex coming on MSB, waiting for parts or all fixed up and running matey.

Just got the replacement great wheel in. I wanted to get this Jurgensen off my bench before diving back into it.

Here's a picture of mine in its current state. I tried sneaking an oiler under the ring to lift the edge, then pushing down on the prongs, but it's not enough.

[Neverenoughwatches]

59 minutes ago, ManSkirtBrew said:

Thanks, everyone. Your feelings echo mine, and I really didn't want to take the cap jewel out, but there was so much gunk packed in from the other side there was no cleaning it out.

Either way, here I am. What would you do if you were me? How were they installed in the first place?

@Neverenoughwatches, here's a photo from that thread I linked. This is exactly what I'm looking at.

Just got the replacement great wheel in. I wanted to get this Jurgensen off my bench before diving back into it.

Fir me personally and i'm definitely no expert on shock jewels and haven’t come across one that seems fixed like this. But i cant see a way around recovering the tension on this spring with the jewel in the way. So either the whole spring has to come out either from the top or the jewel through the bottom. What does the reverse side look like ? Any possibility of it coming out that way ?

7 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Fir me personally and i'm definitely no expert on shock jewels and haven’t come across one that seems fixed like this. But i cant see a way around recovering the tension on this spring with the jewel in the way. So either the whole spring has to come out either from the top or the jewel through the bottom. What does the reverse side look like ? Any possibility of it coming out that way ?

Is this an indentation of any kind to release spring tabs ? Does the spring move/spin  at all ? It may give an indication that it does actually come out. 

9 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Not the answer you're going to want to hear but not all jewel assemblies are meant to come up apart. I would be very concerned if I had to bend up tabs as getting them back down would be problematic.

Also it's of concern when I look at a variety of sources of parts for this movement there is nothing that resembles a balance The jewel assembly. There's all sorts of other replacement things for the watch but nothing for the balance jewel either as a separate component assembled or anything set must be part of the balance bridge and I don't even see that in the parts list. It's not a good sign if nobody lists a replacement part

I hate to put sad faces up but John is pretty shite hot   on this stuff

Edited November 27, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[ManSkirtBrew]

28 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

What does the reverse side look like ? Any possibility of it coming out that way ?

It might, but I'm afraid I'll make things worse without knowing for sure. I have a Horia style tool, but I'd have to destroy the locking ring to get in there and use it.

 

28 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Is this an indentation of any kind to release spring tabs

I thought that too, but mine doesn't have it.

I'm at the point where I may just have to assemble it and hope.

I guess it's a learning experience, but I'm feeling pretty frustrated.

11 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Reform them back to streight or ( to convex from top view )  before bending back on the cap stones.

Okay, I'll try this next.

1 hour ago, ManSkirtBrew said:

12 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Reform them back to streight or ( to convex from top view )  before bending back on the cap stones.

Okay, I'll try this next.

No luck. No matter what I do, I can't get any tension on the jewel. I reformed the prongs to be convex, but when I push them back down, there's still no tension on the jewel.

I was hoping I could get away with just installing the balance, but there's definitely too much end shake. Dial down, you can see the friction stopping the balance as the shoulder of the balance staff contacts the hole jewel.

I wonder if I can replace the clip with a spring from a different kind of shock setting. I really hate to trash the whole movement because of this.

Edited November 27, 2022 by ManSkirtBrew
Edited out my frustration

[Nucejoe]

 Replacing jewel/ cap on this system is at least easier compared to run- in jewels. 

 If you just re shape the tabs back to streight or better yet  convex, then gently bend the taps on cap stones, you can get the jewel secured inside the chaton. 

Rgds

[ManSkirtBrew]

6 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

 Replacing jewel/ cap on this system is at least easier compared to run- in jewels. 

 If you just re shape the tabs back to streight or better yet  convex, then gently bend the taps on cap stones, you can get the jewel secured inside the chaton. 

Rgds

This is what I tried, many times, with no success.

What I just did now was remove the cap stone, bend two of the prongs down past where the stone would be, then slid the capstone back under it. So at least two of the prongs have tension. I think that's as good as I'm going to get it.

[JohnR725]

I wonder if this really is a Ruby-Neutro-Shock system? Then in the other discussion how did they come up with that clever name?

Then we still have a minor problem of is that really what it's called? Because maybe it's designed to look like that but it's not really. This is where research like if somebody had access to the best fit books that might yield something of interest. interesting but is it of any help at all? It would imply that somehow the entire assembly comes apart but only if it actually is this system. A unfortunate problem would be is if it's not and only looks like this system.

[Nucejoe]

Whatever its called or classified as, its a true junk, still made in India.

Good to see MSB got this one mended.

 

[ifibrin]

I think the movements with these fixed prongs for shock settings were used in lower grade movements, and not meant to be taken apart: the entire movement was regarded as disposable, made during the Quartz crisis. The higher grade versions of the same movements came with Incablocs, or KIF trior. I’ve personally seen identical movements with either KIF trior, or these three pronged fixed settings.

@ManSkirtBrew were these shock settings on both the balance cock and mainplate, or only on the main plate?

Edited November 28, 2022 by ifibrin

[ManSkirtBrew]

40 minutes ago, ifibrin said:

were these shock settings on both the balance cock and mainplate, or only on the main plate?

On both.

Interestingly, the listing here in the bidfun-db Archive shows it with an Incabloc setting.

I did find the tech sheet at Cousins, which clearly shows an Incabloc spring as well.

Just double checked, and mine is definitely an AS 5206.

Weird!

 

Edit to include images:

Edited November 28, 2022 by ManSkirtBrew

[ifibrin]

If you could measure the size of the mainplate shock setting, I would be curious if it could be replaced with an original Incabloc shock setting.

According to the catalogue on CousinsUK, the upper block for the AS5200 series uses the Incabloc 10.163.22.262, while the lower block uses the 10.926.20.

 

Only concern is that the balance staff for the Incabloc and fixed 3-prong shock setting may not be identical.

Maybe you should take a picture of the whole movement, especially the makers mark?

Edited November 28, 2022 by ifibrin

[Nucejoe]

I wonder if this design is patented , its still being manufactured and widely in use in India.

It does protect from shocks at the cost of self destruction.

 

 

[JohnR725]

17 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

I wonder if this design is patented , its still being manufactured and widely in use in India.

it would be nice to know a name of a company or individual associated with the patents because usually watch patents are quite detailed and sometimes quite helpful on explaining how things go together.

1 hour ago, ManSkirtBrew said:

definitely an AS 5206.

the problem with printed reference material is it was probably done a long time ago. Even the physical bestfit book was published in a very specific time and it does not even include this watch in the listing anywhere. We do have the shock system which resembles yours but is it really yours? My guess is somebody with the other discussion looked in the bestfit book and decided this is it but is it really? Just because they look similar. Because was the one exactly out of the bestfit book you would Billy get a replacement spring because it's listed as a replacement spring but then the Springwood of loss of come out which yours does not.

Because yours is a newer watch and we don't have any newer cross reference we can't cross reference to anything else. Because if we could cross reference may be could buy a broken watch off of eBay and swapped the setting out of it. But we only get cross-references when someone thought you were going to need to replace the components or components were available.

 

[Bearman]

Hello MSB, I stumbled upon your post which looked familiar. I then remembered my Sandoz watch I put to one side a couple of years ago as I wasn't too sure about the shock setting. I was only just getting into the hobby and didn't have the confidence. Still learning mind. 

I've found nothing so far on the movement other than it's a Sandoz and under the balance it says "SGT 140-A E4". I'm pretty sure this one is a Swiss one rather than one originating in India. It's got a textured face and initials on the crown. Though I'm prepared to be told otherwise. I found it interesting that it was possibly a cost saving/disposable consideration way back then, who knows.

Just thought I'd drop you a line to say thanks for asking the question, and share what appears to be another example. As it's given me some options when I get round to servicing it.

[Nucejoe]

 Sandoz, Camy, West end watch and Favre Leuba all of Swiss origin are still being made in India. 

To make it more confusing, Sandoz Singapore, Sandoz Hong kong and Sandoz spain all produced qualities inferior to Swiss.

A joint production of good quality Cyma also  Sandoz& files , Sandoz& Cie are all familiar brands.

Rgds

 

 

 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

10 hours ago, Bearman said:

Hello MSB, I stumbled upon your post which looked familiar. I then remembered my Sandoz watch I put to one side a couple of years ago as I wasn't too sure about the shock setting. I was only just getting into the hobby and didn't have the confidence. Still learning mind. 

I've found nothing so far on the movement other than it's a Sandoz and under the balance it says "SGT 140-A E4". I'm pretty sure this one is a Swiss one rather than one originating in India. It's got a textured face and initials on the crown. Though I'm prepared to be told otherwise. I found it interesting that it was possibly a cost saving/disposable consideration way back then, who knows.

Just thought I'd drop you a line to say thanks for asking the question, and share what appears to be another example. As it's given me some options when I get round to servicing it.

After MSB's adventure with this incredibly well designed spring that cant be resprung after its despring. I think i would be giving it a long soak and then some colonic irrigation where its sun dont shine.

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 11/28/2022 at 6:16 AM, JohnR725 said:

We do have the shock system which resembles yours but is it really yours? My guess is somebody with the other discussion looked in the bestfit book and decided this is it but is it really? Just because they look similar. Because was the one exactly out of the bestfit book you would Billy get a replacement spring because it's listed as a replacement spring but then the Springwood of loss of come out which yours does not.

Confirmation of John's statement. I've just been looking through some ebay listings of nos parts and came across some jewels for known makes and cals. Yep cap jewels available for the  Neutroshock. This one must come apart, if yours doesn't then its not that type. Probably not much use, if yours doesn't disassemble and parts are not available its pretty irrelevant what its actually called. How about shitety shock system?