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I’m baffled by this one. Trace shows three tracks but amplitude and beat error are decent (I know lift angle isn’t 52, it’s 45). It’s a Hamilton 19J grade 900 (nice watch). I was thinking it has to be something right as the impulse jewel is in the fork. Sound right?

thanks, in advance!B84DFD8D-CB66-4CB4-8C27-702903D20343.thumb.jpeg.6e27c23508f1ebe0e5a612ce8019fba6.jpeg

Edited by Woolshire
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10 minutes ago, Woolshire said:

I’m baffled by this one. Trace shows three tracks but amplitude and beat error are decent (I know lift angle isn’t 52, it’s 45). It’s a Hamilton 19J grade 900 (nice watch). I was thinking it has to be something right as the impulse jewel is in the fork. Sound right?

thanks, in advance!B84DFD8D-CB66-4CB4-8C27-702903D20343.thumb.jpeg.6e27c23508f1ebe0e5a612ce8019fba6.jpeg

The readings may not be accurate with a trace like this. The correct lift angle also would normally bring the amplitude down. Try adjusting the rate to see what difference that will make.

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5 minutes ago, Woolshire said:

I adjusted the rate and put the lift angle at 45. Trace looks same and amplitude is 260-270 now, which matches what I see with a slo-mo video. Also, the amplitude is down to around 200 dial-up, so significantly lower.

Have you manage to get a reading on the rate yet ? Looks like its running slow.

Edited by Neverenoughwatches
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No. Still no rate. Although it appears to be pretty slow. Lost a few minutes since this morning.

I should add that I just serviced this watch. The initial trace looked even worse (snow storm). I found a cracked end stone, which was replaced. Thought that was going to be it, but still work to do.

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3 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Have you manage to get a reading on the rate yet ? Looks like its running slow.

 

Just now, Woolshire said:

No. Still no rate. Although it appears to be pretty slow. Lost a few minutes since this morning.

I should add that I just serviced this watch. The initial trace looked even worse (snow storm). I found a cracked end stone, which was replaced. Thought that was going to be it, but still work to do.

Is the regulation arm fully advanced ?

2 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

 

Is the regulation arm fully advanced ?

If so then you may have friction somewhere which may be a bugger to find as there are many causes. But you may be lucky as there are other common faults that can be found more easily. For example the active hairspring length can be back to the hs stud. Due to the regulator pins not being set correctly. Are you able to get a close up picture of beneath the rate regulator arm where the hs passes through the pins.

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I have the rate fully advanced and still looks the same. The regulator 0FF14000-075E-4FE7-B39E-FE531A6B9186.thumb.jpeg.758be085613e0551a43d39710032daad.jpegpins look good. Snug fit with zero wobble between them. Here’s a photo of what it looks like now, set at 45 lift.

 

Edited by Woolshire
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9 minutes ago, Woolshire said:

I have the rate fully advanced and still looks the same. The regulator 0FF14000-075E-4FE7-B39E-FE531A6B9186.thumb.jpeg.758be085613e0551a43d39710032daad.jpegpins look good. Snug fit with zero wobble between them. Here’s a photo of what it looks like now, set at 45 lift.

 

The trace looks a little better rate wise, but thats got me, I've not seen 3 irregular line patterns like that before. Hopefully someone thats seen this might step in, I'm very curious myself now. Another signal from something else ? But has the same pattern.

6 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

The trace looks a little better rate wise, but thats got me, I've not seen 3 irregular line patterns like that before. Hopefully someone thats seen this might step in, I'm very curious myself now. Another signal from something else ? But has the same pattern.

How does the hairspring look visually from the top and the side. Nice  flat and centered, touching anything ?

Edited by Neverenoughwatches
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27 minutes ago, Woolshire said:

Hairspring not touching anywhere and coils look even. I keep thinking something to do with the pallet fork. What would the trace do if the knock pin was barely touching the impulse jewel in the way by?

Are you meaning the guard pin on the fork of the lever. Its possible that the bottom of the impulse jewel is touching, a very worn dial side staff pivot ? But then amp would be low. What is the endshake on the balance like ? Impulse jewel slipped down ? Too long a soak in IPA. Can you get in and see if its touching.

9 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Are you meaning the guard pin on the fork of the lever. Its possible that the bottom of the impulse jewel is touching, a very worn dial side staff pivot ? But then amp would be low. What is the endshake on the balance like ? Impulse jewel slipped down ? Too long a soak in IPA. Can you get in and see if its touching.

Read back a bit. What is endshake and side shake on pallet like ? How is the pallet top pivot ? You said amp drops around 70 degrees dial up. Working on the theory that the impulse jewel is catching the guard pin.

Edited by Neverenoughwatches
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I’ll take it apart later and take a better look at the impulse jewel length. I didn’t use IPA or anything that dissolves shellac. The balance end-shake looks and feels good. 
Really strange amplitude is good, at least dial down, but trace is sooooo whacky.
 

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18 minutes ago, Woolshire said:

I’ll take it apart later and take a better look at the impulse jewel length. I didn’t use IPA or anything that dissolves shellac. The balance end-shake looks and feels good. 
Really strange amplitude is good, at least dial down, but trace is sooooo whacky.
 

Rather odd as I've not seen a trace like that. A logical process of elimination required.  JohnR725 or Nicklesilver would have more of an idea based on the timegrapher trace.

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When I see traces like that is when pivots are broken or when HS coils are touching or bunched up. I would focus around the balance area and spend some time making sure everything is perfect. If an end cap is cracked, I’m inclined to think the pivot that goes with it is compromised.

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9 hours ago, Woolshire said:

Still no rate. Although it appears to be pretty slow. Lost a few minutes since this morning.

I should add that I just serviced this watch. The initial trace looked even worse (snow storm). I found a cracked end stone, which was replaced.

It would be nice to have the background history of the watch for something like this. In other words the watch was running perfect and now it's not or recently acquired you have zero idea what the background history is.

Servicing I assume means entire disassembly cleaning of everything did you change the mainspring proper lubrication etc. I assume all of that was done?

Then we really need better timing machine diagnostics here. Wind the watch up let it run about 15 minutes up to an hour works. Then we need dial up, dial down and at the minimum one crown position and as it's a pocket watch crown down. It would also be nice to have the other Three crown positions. Each time you rotate the microphone let the watch sit about 30 seconds then let it time for another 30 seconds and get a picture we really need to see it in more than one position.

Then it would be nice to have a close-up picture of the balance wheel in the watch preferably when it's not running so we can see it.

8 hours ago, Woolshire said:

I keep thinking something to do with the pallet fork.

Any idea why you think the pallet forks the problem?

Then your pictures aren't showing us one little thing that I'm curious about. It's supposed to pick up the frequency Of the watch and automatically select the Beats per hour it perceives the watch is but we don't see that In the pictures it be nice to know what that number is. As you're so far out it's possible The machine is confused over what Rate the Watch is running Had. Otherwise you could also go and just manually select 18,000 and see if that changes anything.

 

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Hi You seem to have had some comprehensive advice.  As John remarked what is the history as it enables us to form an opinion as to the problem.  I have enclosed a couple of documents which are worth reading to give you a thorough understanding of the analasys of a watch and timing machine out put.

Timing-Machine-Charts (7).PDF witschi_training_course.pdf

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5 hours ago, Klassiker said:

My guess, the timing is off by more than 999 s/day.

That is the reason of your trace and missing beat rate detection.

You cannot tell from the traces if the watch is way too fast or too slow.

You may try what John suggested (set 18000 manually, but it will not make much difference, I suppose) or test the rate "by foot" with a stopwatch and counting swings.

Then you will get the rate error but not yet its reason.

Frank

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Good morning and Happy Thanksgiving!

I’ll answer as many question as I can with what I just read: The watch is losing a lot of time. Looks to be 30+ min per day, so that jives with the dashes on the Timegrapher (>-999 s/d)  Now, to figure out the issue. The timegrapher immediately picks up the 18000 bph (which is accurate) and the amplitude, which also appears to be accurate, comparing to slo-mo video . Would the slow rate explain the three tracks on the display? My initial thought is no. The three tracks likely will, in the end, explain the slow rate.

The question on history; I am servicing this watch for the first time. It is new to me. Initially, the trace was a a snow storm and the amplitude was detected at at ~150 dial down and would barely stay running dial up. The watch was totally disassembled, as typical. It didn’t seem extremely dirty. The mainspring was removed and cleaned and re-oiled, as it looks almost new. It had definitely been replaced previously with a white alloy spring. I did check the size of it and it is correct.

I believe I do need to focus on the balance or possibly, the fork and pallets. One of the pallet stones has been replaced, as it is pink instead of white. (Hamilton came from factory with white sapphire pallet stones). It does appear to be doing it’s job prior to balance installed, with a nice and solid snap to the other pin. I should also note the train is as friction free as I’ve seen. Just a puffer blow sent it on its way before pallet install and with a slight rebound after mainspring installed. All that certainly seems to narrow problem to escapement and-or balance. I did find a badly cracked balance endstone. I replaced that. The staff may have been replaced at some point. I’ll try to get some photos of the balance insitu and out of the movement, removed from the balance cock.

Here a few photos:

the last one looks like the hairspring is slightly cupped, but it doesn’t really appear that way in hand. Regardless, the hairspring is not touching anywhere and the coils are all separated.

I do have a donor 12 size Hamilton that I believe uses the same balance. It is a grade 914 instead of 900. It has a good hairspring but has a broken staff. I could replace that and give it a go. Or, maybe just try that hairspring to see if trace looks better?

 

DC9615E0-6E06-47AE-AC0B-207EFE6CD934.jpeg

684BAC1C-3875-4B06-96AB-07A98E6C3CBF.jpeg

5A0F5D00-20FE-4341-A8F8-965AB46BA381.jpeg

Edited by Woolshire
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2 hours ago, Woolshire said:

Would the slow rate explain the three tracks on the display? My initial thought is no. The three tracks likely will, in the end, explain the slow rate.

Look closely at the order in which the dots appear on the screen. I suspect something like this:

DSC03074.thumb.JPG.e86f90e45154c2c48393e79f37740ca3.JPG

The normal trace would read as + a few seconds per day, and the one on the right hugely minus. Odd dots are the entry pallet, even the exit (or vice-versa).

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28 minutes ago, Klassiker said:

Look closely at the order in which the dots appear on the screen. I suspect something like this:

DSC03074.thumb.JPG.e86f90e45154c2c48393e79f37740ca3.JPG

The normal trace would read as + a few seconds per day, and the one on the right hugely minus. Odd dots are the entry pallet, even the exit (or vice-versa).

Hmmm…that’s interesting. I now wonder if this balance wheel has been replaced but just waaaay too heavy. I did note a slightly sharp tip to the top staff pivot. I gave it two very minor swipes on a burnish stone. Surprisingly, that seems to have greatly improved the dial up position. It is now at 230-280 amplitude in all positions. Any thoughts on some wholesale removal of balance screws to see what happens? Obviously, they can be replaced…I should add; I understand that’s not the proper way to fix this, but would be effective to prove Klassiker’s thought.

Edited by Woolshire
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2 hours ago, Woolshire said:

I believe I do need to focus on the balance or possibly, the fork and pallets.

 

2 hours ago, Woolshire said:

escapement and-or balance.

Out of curiosity why do you think the escapement would make Your watch runs slow?

One of the problems with inheriting a watch in an unknown condition is we don't know what's happened to it before you obtained it. In other words we cannot assume that this watch was running perfect and then you service did and now it's running bad we get to assume that it was probably not running perfect and you didn't fix the problem when you serviced it. This is the problem of vintage watches they've gone through a lot a hands and things have happened to them so we don't know what's happened to the watch in the past but I can make some assumptions and will run a test to see if I'm guessing right.

Then when you're servicing the watch did you pay attention to the balance wheel serial number? Typically but not always on American pocket watches the serial number is scribed on the balance wheel.

Then running extremely slow with seemingly perfect amplitude and everything else looking perfect is definitely a bit odd. This is why was asking about the pallet fork because it's probably not A escapement issue if everything seems running perfect it's just really really slow.

Then looking at the pictures I see black spots which are usually the signs of rust has occurred at some point in the past. Did you see signs of rust anywhere including the hairspring?

2 hours ago, Woolshire said:

The staff may have been replaced at some point. I’ll try to get some photos of the balance

What makes you think the balance staff has been changed?

2 hours ago, Woolshire said:

I do have a donor 12 size Hamilton that I believe uses the same balance. It is a grade 914 instead of 900. It has a good hairspring but has a broken staff. I could replace that and give it a go. Or, maybe just try that hairspring to see if trace looks better?

Then just a reminder about swapping hairsprings. Yes it's a replaceable components and you're right the 914 and it looks like the 900 components like the balance wheel hairspring are all the same. So let's do a mixing and matching what harm could that do?

On watches with flat hairsprings every single hairspring was vibrated to the balance wheel it's on. But watches with over coil hairsprings like this the hairspring is made separate from the balance wheel. It's easier for manufacturing to get the over coil in the exact right place if it's manufactured separately. This means that the factory when they bring the balance wheel and hairspring together they put on a special timing machine and they had timing screws to bring it into the proper rate. Then they would find tune with the mean time screws it looks like you have Four of those.

There's a lot of things that can cause fast there is actually limited things that would cause slow Especially if everything else is supposedly perfect. It would be nice to have a picture the balance wheel out of the watch in other words you can taken out leave it on the bridge just flip it over so we can see The balance wheel. It looks like this watch has four mean time screws they look like they're probably fine. But I can't see all of them in the pictures you have.

So let's try an experiment in the balance wheels out of the watch carefully remove one of the balance screws not the mean time screws. Just one of the Screws put it someplace safe because we might put it back in again. Then but the balance back in the watch and give us a timing machine results of dial up and then flip it over and give a style down and see what if anything has changed.

 

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/hamilton/1757942

 

 

 

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Seems we are thinking the same on the screws of the balance. I did not look at the serial number on the bottom of the wheel. I will do that. No rust on mainspring and really not much at all. Edit: (I meant hairspring)

it’s time to go to family dinner, so I’ll respond later, after a bunch of turkey, wine, yams, cranberries, pumpkin pie, etc…

hmmm…maybe I better limit the wine part.

Edited by Woolshire
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