Interesting Alcohol Problem

[Sebastian]

Hi all,

I was servicing an old 1950s Pobeda movement, and I typically use shellite in the ultrasonic for the cleaning of parts, and a 70% alcohol for the rinse. Anyways, I stupidly got distracted and left the keyless works in the alcohol solution overnight, sitting in a little steel mesh basket. Imagine my surprise when I fished it out today and discovered all the parts completely destroyed by rust.

Does anyone have any thoughts on the cause of this? My first thoughts are that I usually use IPA for the rinse, not a 70% solution, so the water component couldn't have helped. However, I would have thought that air would be required for rust to develop. It was incredible the speed at which it developed too. Thoughts?

Many thanks,

Seb

[Kalanag]

70% alcohol means 30% water. Leaving the parts in this rinse fluid for hours inevitably leads to corrosion.

[HectorLooi]

After cleaning ferrous parts in a water based cleaner, the metal surface becomes very reactive. Parts can rust within minutes. I stopped using water based cleaners because parts start to rust within the time it takes to rinse twice and dry, which is about 30 mins.

I know @jdm and @nickelsilver have said that it doesn't happen when using water based cleaners designed for horology. But I have not tried it personally, so I can't say.

In my dental practice, I have a rust inhibitor which is sprayed on carbon steel instruments to prevent rust while sterilizing them. I don't know what the active ingredients are but it seems to work. But sadly, this product has been discontinued. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

29 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

After cleaning ferrous parts in a water based cleaner, the metal surface becomes very reactive. Parts can rust within minutes. I stopped using water based cleaners because parts start to rust within the time it takes to rinse twice and dry, which is about 30 mins.

I know @jdm and @nickelsilver have said that it doesn't happen when using water based cleaners designed for horology. But I have not tried it personally, so I can't say.

In my dental practice, I have a rust inhibitor which is sprayed on carbon steel instruments to prevent rust while sterilizing them. I don't know what the active ingredients are but it seems to work. But sadly, this product has been discontinued. 

The reason i wont use water based cleaners. Ones for horology and as a few members here use them must indicate that these dont cause rust.

[clockboy]

Many many years ago I used to use a water based cleaner for clocks but I found if I did not completely dry every part rust would appear..  I now use L&R products with my watch cleaning machine and with my ultra sonic use Elma 1:9 cleaner which ironically is mixed with water but rinse with Elma “Luxury Clean”  waterless rinse. Then a hair dryer just to be certain all is dry.

[nickelsilver]

I used water based cleaners and alcohol rinse for watches for many years with no problems. I didn't leave things in the alcohol overnight though, haha. My machine has a built in distiller for the alcohol, so the rinse is always clean, but even though the alcohol starts at 99% at a point it drops to around 80%, the max you can get from normal distillation. I don't think the main issue is the 70% alcohol, but the overnight stay. At any rate, if using water based cleaners an alcohol rinse is good at least as a final rinse, as it readily absorbs water, and evaporates easily in a warm air dryer (which I think is obligatory). The above machine has a built in dryer (the air moving conveniently past the distillation tower, clever); when I do clocks, also in water based cleaner, I rinse in clean water, then alcohol, pat dry, then onto a hot air dryer to fully evaporate the remaining alcohol/water mix.

 

As a note, acetone will absorb water from the air, so if you regularly glue up parts for fixturing (as I do) with superglue and de-glue in acetone, an overnight stay can easily end up with rusty parts.

[watchweasol]

Hi   Ithink the key to any cleaning process with both clocks and watches is the drying process,  which is  of paramount importance.  My machine is yonks old (National) and has a drying chamber, which is used after removing as much of the cleaning fluid by spinning off. The parts then go on to the paper and are gently dried again with a hair dryer just to be sure (belt and braces)  and to date no problems.  do not try and shortcut the drying process.

[clockboy]

56 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

Hi   Ithink the key to any cleaning process with both clocks and watches is the drying process,  which is  of paramount importance.  My machine is yonks old (National) and has a drying chamber, which is used after removing as much of the cleaning fluid by spinning off. The parts then go on to the paper and are gently dried again with a hair dryer just to be sure (belt and braces)  and to date no problems.  do not try and shortcut the drying process.

Agree 100% that was one of my reasons to move away from ultra sonic cleaning to a dedicated watch cleaning machine. 

[Sebastian]

This is all great advice. Thanks for your replies all. I’m still shocked that the rust developed so quickly. Shellite is a petroleum distillate — basically naphtha — so it must have been the water component in the alcohol “rinse” (accidental soak). I think I will add hair dryer to this process too. Thanks again.

[HectorLooi]

15 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

My machine has a built in distiller for the alcohol, so the rinse is always clean

I know you have mentioned this feature of your cleaning machine before but I have never seen any machine on eBay with that feature. Could you be so kind as to post some photos of your machine.

TIA

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

I know you have mentioned this feature of your cleaning machine before but I have never seen any machine on eBay with that feature. Could you be so kind as to post some photos of your machine.

Not sure if it's true but somewhere I read it was not available in the US for instance because it's distilling alcohol Which is frowned upon at least it used to be. So if you're going to find the machine it's more than likely going to be found in Europe. I'm sure that it's been posted before of the discussion group including pictures but I can never find the machine where I go looking for it.

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/greiner-ultrason-cleaning-machine-465667345

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

distilling alcohol Which is frowned upon at least it used to be. 

Haha. Unless you have a license to do it , i think you might find that its more than frowned upon in quite a few places . 

[nickelsilver]

John's got it. First bath is the cleaner, with ultrasonic and the fluid is circulated through a filter. 2nd is alcohol, you do a rinse for about a minute, press a button and it drains into the distiller and in 6 minutes you have a new second rinse.

 

The 3rd hatch is for stearic acid epilame. The bottom heats up and melts a layer of stearic acid there, parts go in suspended above, close, and in one minute a microscope layer has deposited.

 

Super cool machine, but they were last made in the late 60s so they're old and run on vacuum tubes. I use a Greiner ACS 900 now.

 

Below is a pic of one of mine. The parts are strung on wires that clip shut on the holder on the top right; I think one of the things that help it work so well is the parts are totally "free" in the baths (though small parts or parts without holes go in a little basket that hangs there). The whole part holder- which everyone in my shop calls the christmas tree- gets turned slowly during cleaning by a little motor in the lid, which helps even out the ultrasonics and presents the parts evenly to the fairly vigorously pumped cleaning fluid.

 

 

Edited November 23, 2022 by nickelsilver

[Ammar]

I use 99% alcohol to wash and rise the parts, I've left parts in it for months and neve had a problem. 

I also have one of them usb heating pads that I put the parts on after I take them out of the jars jut to be sure that theyre dried proberly. 

Edited November 23, 2022 by Ammar

[grsnovi]

6 hours ago, Ammar said:

I use 99% alcohol to wash and rise the parts, I've left parts in it for months and neve had a problem. 

Just be aware that IPA will dissolve shellac (look at the pallet stones and roller jewel) and some glues (where the hairspring attaches).

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, grsnovi said:

Just be aware that IPA will dissolve shellac (look at the pallet stones and roller jewel) and some glues (where the hairspring attaches).

The glue for hairsprings falls under a interesting slightly different category than shellac. The Elgin watch company pioneered some of this in whatever they used wasn't supposed be affected by normal cleaning products. Then even Rolex uses it on I think 3035 and one other technical thing there's a note but occasionally it will fail. But if were talking about the Chinese glue then it will probably fail if you just look at her and definitely will fail in any cleaning product to clean the watch more than a couple of times.

Than isopropyl alcohol is interesting for shellac in that it isn't as aggressive at dissolving it. Par very expensive cleaning machine at work the last rinse is isopropyl alcohol 99%. It's used to remove the final rents because it has a habit of not actually evaporating. As far as I can tell I've never seen a problem but I'm not sure how much I read the programming of the machine how long it spends in their I don't think it spends a lot of time it's only in there long enough to rinse off the previous rinse and then it goes right to the drying cycle.

Then even alcohol that will dissolves shellac which is what I use at home on those rare occasions where I clean a watch. I'm only in the alcohol for a few seconds just enough to take the final rinse off and I go right to drawing and I've never had a problem.

But I do know of someone who left their watch in the bad kind of alcohol for longer than they should have and the roller jewel fell out.. So basically really shouldn't leave a watch in a solution for any length of time as there is a likelihood of undesirable things happening. Bike leaving a long time in the cleaning fluid shellac is the least of your concerns as really bad things can happen with the cleaning fluids. Probably the rinse solution is the most harmless butI still wouldn't leave the watch in a solution for a very long length of time I just don't think it's a good idea.

9 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

The 3rd hatch is for stearic acid epilame. The bottom heats up and melts a layer of stearic acid there, parts go in suspended above, close, and in one minute a microscope layer has deposited.

This is always one of the things that fascinates me with the machine. So how well did the vapor process work for epilam?

[Ammar]

2 hours ago, grsnovi said:

Just be aware that IPA will dissolve shellac (look at the pallet stones and roller jewel) and some glues (where the hairspring attaches).

Yes I'm aware of that, I clean those parts in naphtha.

[Neverenoughwatches]

5 hours ago, grsnovi said:

Just be aware that IPA will dissolve shellac (look at the pallet stones and roller jewel) and some glues (where the hairspring attaches).

If left too long it can.

11 hours ago, Ammar said:

I use 99% alcohol to wash and rise the parts, I've left parts in it for months and neve had a problem. 

I also have one of them usb heating pads that I put the parts on after I take them out of the jars jut to be sure that theyre dried proberly. 

The heat pad sounds interesting,  can we see a picture .

29 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

If left too long it can.

The heat pad sounds interesting,  can we see a picture .

Ebay looked. Cool thanks. I use an electric wax melt jar but this is a good back up. I can also keep my butt warm when its not drying watch parts.

[Ammar]

11 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Ebay looked. Cool thanks. I use an electric wax melt jar but this is a good back up. I can also keep my butt warm when its not drying watch parts.

Yes they are cheap and good, they are designed to heat feet and hands or to be put in pockets but I find them good to dry parts, I didn't think of using them to heat my butt to be honest 

Buy the carbon fiber ones not the wire ones those are not so good and can cause problems.

Edited November 24, 2022 by Ammar

[jdm]

On 11/22/2022 at 8:38 AM, HectorLooi said:

After cleaning ferrous parts in a water based cleaner, the metal surface becomes very reactive. Parts can rust within minutes. I stopped using water based cleaners because parts start to rust within the time it takes to rinse twice and dry, which is about 30 mins.

Water / ammonia based solutions are for brass parts, not ferreous materials. I never said otherwise. That said, if one rinse with benzine or IPA and dries them well, all is good anyway.