Jules Jurgenson wristwatch service

[ManSkirtBrew]

Picked this handsome fellow up at a local jewelry store. The only things I know about it are the 5521 on the caseback, and it's got an AS 5206 movement in it. I don't see any other serial numbers on the movement. If anyone has more info, I'd love to hear.

The initial timegrapher trace was a little noisy and strange, so I'm looking forward to seeing what a service will do for it.

Mainspring looks good, so hopefully I'll just be replacing the crystal and maybe the crown gasket. I should probably get an assortment of those anyway.

Edited November 20, 2022 by ManSkirtBrew
Spelling in title

[ManSkirtBrew]

Now that I have the jewel issue sorted out, I'm having a new problem. I figured it'd make sense to keep the question in this thread instead of starting a new one in the repair forum. Hope that's okay.

This is my first time working on a day/date mechanism, so please feel free to correct any of my assumptions here.

So there's a jumper gear at the red arrow here:

When the stem is pulled out to the center position, it moves left or right depending on how you turn the stem, presumably to set the date in one direction and the day in the other.

When the stem is in the winding or hand setting positions, it's held to the right so it doesn't engage with that brass wheel.

The problem is that jumper gear is extremely difficult to turn. Without that plate installed, the train runs free and there's power at the pallet fork. When I install that plate, the the train doesn't run at all. The pallet fork just hangs free between the escape wheel teeth.

The part I'm confused by is how did it run before? Is there something about the day/date mechanism that I'm missing here? As far as I can tell, that jumper gear isn't removable, so I'm not sure how I would fix it, either.

I feel like I'm missing some bit of knowledge here, and I'm hopeful this board has it.

EDIT: Well friends, turns out today I am a ding-dong, but I'll leave all this here for anyone in the future. In the end, I was able to problem solve my way to the answer, so I guess it's not so bad.

This small gear is upside down. The long part of its arbor interfaces with the nose of the stem, which lifts the gear up off the center one that's connected to the 3rd wheel. Flipping it over fixed the problem.

The gear I was originally talking about is still stiff to turn, but it's only used when setting the calendar works, so I'm guessing it's supposed to be that way.

Edited November 29, 2022 by ManSkirtBrew
Found the solution

[Charette]

Good problem solving. Sometimes it just takes some staring at eh? I have yet to work on a date or day/date watch myself, so this may help me in the future.

Take care.

[ManSkirtBrew]

There were many other problems along the way. I had problems with the balance jewels, the hairspring was all sticky, then I kept having issues with the watch stopping when I put the face on.

Turns out there's a friction ring that holds the date ring in place, and it was slightly interfering with the dial feet, causing the dial to put pressure on the hour wheel, stopping the movement. Drove me bananas for days tracking that down.

I learned a lot, and I think I'm a better repairer for it, though. And I've got a lovely Christmas gift for a young man to show for it.

I'm smitten by the pinstriped dial, and the new crystal really makes it pop.

[ManSkirtBrew]

I got a text from the recipient of this gift that his watch had stopped! My poor heart sank.

Took a look, and it was stopped despite being wound. A little bump of the movement got it running again. My first instinct was after all the trouble I had with the lower shock setting, that the lower balance jewel had come loose, but it looks fine. Nothing else obvious on initial inspection so off to the timegrapher we go.

Dial up looks fabulous:

Dial down pretty good:

Pendant up, solid:

Pendant down, the wheels come off:

Pendant left is also pear shaped:

And pendant right is pretty reasonable:

I'm too tired to start stripping it back down tonight, so I'll take bets on where the problem lies.

I offered to take video to show him what's inside his watch, so enjoy 12 minutes of me fumbling it apart. Highly recommend 1.5x speed and skipping the part where I find my gloves to handle the dial.

Edit to note around 10:00 there's some decent video of the escapement, for armchair diagnosis.

 

Edited October 5 by ManSkirtBrew

[Nucejoe]

Hi there,

 Shock spring is loose= excessive end shake which  might let things rub especially the  pivot shoulder.

Loose spring= loose jewel inside the setting = loss of amplitude too.

Good luck 

[ManSkirtBrew]

10 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Shock spring is loose= excessive end shake which  might let things rub especially the  pivot shoulder.

I did think of that, but the timegrapher trace seems to suggest something hitting something, like the hairspring rubbing on the bridge in certain positions.

I still need to sit down and do a really thorough inspection, but I may see if I can source a donor movement and press out that setting.

[Nucejoe]

Loose chaton moves inside the housing with every impulse, often making an audible chirp sound thence,

On 10/5/2023 at 5:16 PM, ManSkirtBrew said:

 the timegrapher trace seems to suggest something hitting something, 

Try holding down all thats inside the housing with a peg wood and observe the effect.

Rgds

[ManSkirtBrew]

On 10/6/2023 at 9:56 AM, Nucejoe said:

Try holding down all thats inside the housing with a peg wood and observe the effect.

So of course after winding it and putting it back on the timegrapher to do this, I can't reproduce the noisy traces. I get clean lines in every position.

I still get low amplitude in some positions, and putting pressure on the bottom balance jewel with pegwood makes no change.

I took apart the donor 5206, and oh boy did I get a surprise. The upper balance jewel seems to be held in with...hot glue?

That is definitely a first for me. The bottom jewel looks good, though.

 

While it looks like the jewel setting will press out and is the same size as the original movement, I'm wondering if it makes more sense to just use the whole main plate from the donor movement. Is there a chance they won't interchange? Here's the marking on the original movement:

And on the donor:

[ManSkirtBrew]

Update: since I have to push the chaton out of the old one anyway, I had a go at it tonight.

I thought it might come out in two pieces, making it possible to get to the shock spring. Looks like I thought wrong.

I was excited for a second at the side view, but it looks like the chaton is one piece, and there's an insert pressed inside of it to hold the shock spring down.

Anyone have experience with one of these and have a suggestion for me? I'm trying to come up with ways to get that inner bezel out and haven't come up with much that won't crack the jewel.

It'd be nice if I didn't have to Frankenwatch these two movements together.

[ManSkirtBrew]

So I gave up on that jewel and thought I'd just try using the whole main plate from the donor AS 5206. It seemed like everything is the same except the balance setting. I put the balance in and it spun freely, so off I go.

I noticed the train wasn't running as freely as I'd like so I checked the end shake and found a lot on the 3rd wheel. Then I took a look from the side...

Then I inspected the jewel for the 3rd wheel and sure enough:

And then I noticed there's no oil sink for the jewel. Here's the one in the original mainplate:

 

So now I have a decision.

1. Use the donor mainplate and press the 3rd wheel jewel to the correct depth, and oil the pivot before installation.
2. Use the donor mainplate and use the 3rd wheel jewel from the original mainplate.
3. Use the original mainplate and press the whole lower balance chaton out of the donor mainplate and put it in the original.

I'm taking votes; what would you do?

[RichardHarris123]

I'd vote for option 2 but let's see what the experts say. 

[ManSkirtBrew]

Well, I went with option #3. Got a lot of practice installing the balance while I snuck up on the end shake.

I've got it running in now, so fingers crossed.

 

[Nucejoe]

 The balance wheel is unlevel and needs to be poised, as is, you would  be seeing big delta in positional variation 

 

Edited November 28 by Nucejoe

[ManSkirtBrew]

Thanks, @Nucejoe. Taking a closer look brought something more concerning to my attention: the pallet cock appears to be bent!

I bet in certain positions it was just enough combined with the uneven balance to cause contact and stop the movement.

 

After fixing that, took an initial timegrapher reading to see where we're at, and I'm not unhappy.

[Nucejoe]

 Wasn't it FD in the video ?  so 

 

3 hours ago, ManSkirtBrew said:

I bet in certain positions it was just enough combined with the uneven balance to cause contact and stop the movement.

Is of no concern.

Nevertheless, positional variation issue still remains.

I wont tell your friend about it , promiss. 

Rgds

 

Edited November 28 by Nucejoe

[JohnR725]

13 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Nevertheless, positional variation issue still remains.

After you fixed all the problems how does the watch look in various positions? Is amazing what defects can do to screw up timekeeping and until the watches running in good condition it's hard to tell if the balance has a problem or not from a poising error. Then this is a modern screwless balance more than likely it does not have a poising error unless somebody's modified it. The factory poised it within the specifications of the watch it may not be perfect but it still should be reasonably poised unless you're having other issues which you are having. So now how does it look in various positions that you fixed all the problems?

 

4 hours ago, ManSkirtBrew said:

Taking a closer look brought something more concerning to my attention: the pallet cock appears to be bent!

I bet in certain positions it was just enough combined with the uneven balance to cause contact and stop the movement.

Certain positions like in the timing machine results above for you had random dots sort of? One of things nice when you getting weird stuff from the timing machine is to listen to the sound of the watch. That's the downfall of the Chinese timing machines they don't have audio like when she typically does. When you listen to the audio and you're having rubbing bumping hitting issues a lot of times you can actually hear that. Hairspring bumping in the something can be quite musical the sound it makes for instance balance wheel a course bumping in the things you'll hear that a lot of the times the timing machine season shows you that but if you listen often times you could hear there's a problem

 

[ManSkirtBrew]

As I was buttoning it up, I noticed some suspicious scuffing on one of the wheels in the automatic module. A closer look showed the reason:

At least this watch is keeping me from getting bored.

[ManSkirtBrew]

Few more progress pix and closeups of the wear. Anyone have a lubrication chart lying around? My searches have come up empty.

Edit: it looks like it's designed this way to minimize end shake as much as possible. I guess the wear is a lubrication issue.

Edited Monday at 06:03 PM by ManSkirtBrew

[watchweasol]

Hi MSB.   find attached the Generic lubrication document fron the BHI in the UK regarding lubrication.

BTI-The_Practical_Lubrication_of_Clocks_and_Watches.pdf